Wu.

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White Lotus
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Wu.

Post by White Lotus »

:namaste: hello,
i read today in my book that 'Wu' is a character that can mean sartori. what does wu mean and how can it be translated into english in a buddhist context.

best wishes, White Lotus.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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m0rl0ck
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Re: Wu.

Post by m0rl0ck »

Some background courtesy of Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_%28negative%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C5%8Dan" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A monk asked Zhàozhōu, "Does a dog have Buddha nature or not?" Zhaozhou said, "Wú."

* ("Zhaozhou" is rendered as "Chao-chou" in Wade-Giles, and pronounced "Joshu" in Japanese. "Wu" appears as "mu" in archaic Japanese, meaning "no", "not", "nonbeing", or "without" in English. This is a fragment of Case #1 of the Wúménguān. However, note that a similar kōan records that, on another occasion, Zhaozhou said "yes" in response: Case #18 of the Book of Serenity. Essentially this koan is a reference to that which has no name, but lip-service is pointless here, thus the Zen emphasis on practice. At the same time do not construe of Mu as meaning, "no," as advised in The Three Pillars of Zen)"

The qoute above is from the second link. I added the bold emphasis.
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Astus
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Re: Wu.

Post by Astus »

This is "wu" from the gongan: 無 - it means "no"
This is "wu" that in Japanese stands for "satori": 悟 - it means "comprehension"
And this is "wu": 五 - which means "5"
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Dexing
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Re: Wu.

Post by Dexing »

Astus wrote:This is "wu" from the gongan: 無 - it means "no"
This is "wu" that in Japanese stands for "satori": 悟 - it means "comprehension"
And this is "wu": 五 - which means "5"
I really wish people would use proper pīnyīn which uses tone marks, whenever they don't use the characters. A pronunciation is not complete without the tone. So wú and wù are actually two different sounds altogether.

Not only do all of these words have completely different characters, but they are actually pronounced differently; wú 無, wù 悟, and wǔ 五.

If people actually used the tone marks they wouldn't mistake wú for wù. But since there are many characters that have the same pronunciation including tone, it's best to always include the character with any pīnyīn.

Why is that so difficult?

:shrug:

:namaste:
nopalabhyate...
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Astus
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Re: Wu.

Post by Astus »

Dexing wrote:wú 無, wù 悟, and wǔ 五
Try the Japanese reading: mu/bu, go, go. No tones, no problem. :tongue:
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Huifeng
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Re: Wu.

Post by Huifeng »

White Lotus wrote::namaste: hello,
i read today in my book that 'Wu' is a character that can mean sartori. what does wu mean and how can it be translated into english in a buddhist context.

best wishes, White Lotus.
That's the character 悟 wu4. In Japanese, it is pronounced "satori".
In general, it means "realize", "know", etc. But this would depend on context.
The most common term is 開悟 kai1 wu4, "realize".

But,
m0rl0ck wrote:Some background courtesy of Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_%28negative%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C5%8Dan" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A monk asked Zhàozhōu, "Does a dog have Buddha nature or not?" Zhaozhou said, "Wú."

* ("Zhaozhou" is rendered as "Chao-chou" in Wade-Giles, and pronounced "Joshu" in Japanese. "Wu" appears as "mu" in archaic Japanese, meaning "no", "not", "nonbeing", or "without" in English. This is a fragment of Case #1 of the Wúménguān. However, note that a similar kōan records that, on another occasion, Zhaozhou said "yes" in response: Case #18 of the Book of Serenity. Essentially this koan is a reference to that which has no name, but lip-service is pointless here, thus the Zen emphasis on practice. At the same time do not construe of Mu as meaning, "no," as advised in The Three Pillars of Zen)"

The qoute above is from the second link. I added the bold emphasis.
This is the character 無 wu1. Totally different character, essentially with nothing in common with the character 悟 wu4.

This one means "without", or more abstract, "non-existence", etc. depending on context.
It is usually paired with 有 you3, "have", "with", "existence", etc.
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Lazy_eye
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Re: Wu.

Post by Lazy_eye »

Woof!

;)
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Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: Wu.

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi »

Moo.
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White Lotus
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Re: Wu.

Post by White Lotus »

thanks everyone! posts appreciated.

with Hui Nengs: pien lai wu i wu.

"from the beginning is not a single thing."

how would this wu (wu i wu) be translated and is it the same as the Wu used for 'sartori', or realization?

best wishes, White Lotus.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Huifeng
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Re: Wu.

Post by Huifeng »

White Lotus wrote:thanks everyone! posts appreciated.

with Hui Nengs: pien lai wu i wu.

"from the beginning is not a single thing."

how would this wu (wu i wu) be translated and is it the same as the Wu used for 'sartori', or realization?

best wishes, White Lotus.
ben3 lai2 wu2 yi1 wu4
本來無一物

The first wu2 is the "no ...", the second wu4 is yet another one, which means "thing" in the colloquial sense, but "entity" in more technical Buddhist terminology. Hence "not a single thing".

Neither of them are the wu4 悟 of "realization".

Just before we go any further, I'll list here some of the characters which are pronounced "wu":
First tone, "wu1":
屋, 烏, 污, 汙, 圬, 誣, 嗚, 巫, 鎢, 鄔, 洿, 歍, 惡, 於, 杇, 陓, 剭, 窏, 腛, 鴮, 螐, 媉, 汚, 鵐 <- that's 24, but not all of them.
Second tone, "wu2":
無, 吳, 吾, 梧, 巫, 蕪, 唔, 蜈, 誣, 毋, 亡, 牾, 膴, 麌... etc. etc. <- again, just some of them.

etc. etc.

The point I wish to make is this, whether it be "kong" or "wu" or any other Chinese pinyin term, there are an awful lot of homophones. So, just seeing that the pinyin is the same, and trying to make connections, is a surefire way of jumbling a whole lot of things up.
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catmoon
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Re: Wu.

Post by catmoon »

Huifeng wrote:
Just before we go any further, I'll list here some of the characters which are pronounced "wu":
First tone, "wu1":
屋, 烏, 污, 汙, 圬, 誣, 嗚, 巫, 鎢, 鄔, 洿, 歍, 惡, 於, 杇, 陓, 剭, 窏, 腛, 鴮, 螐, 媉, 汚, 鵐 <- that's 24, but not all of them.
Second tone, "wu2":
無, 吳, 吾, 梧, 巫, 蕪, 唔, 蜈, 誣, 毋, 亡, 牾, 膴, 麌... etc. etc. <- again, just some of them.

etc. etc.

The point I wish to make is this, whether it be "kong" or "wu" or any other Chinese pinyin term, there are an awful lot of homophones. So, just seeing that the pinyin is the same, and trying to make connections, is a surefire way of jumbling a whole lot of things up.

After reading the above, I find it incredible that anyone can communicate at all using this language!

:shock:
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Huifeng
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Re: Wu.

Post by Huifeng »

catmoon wrote:
Huifeng wrote:
Just before we go any further, I'll list here some of the characters which are pronounced "wu":
First tone, "wu1":
屋, 烏, 污, 汙, 圬, 誣, 嗚, 巫, 鎢, 鄔, 洿, 歍, 惡, 於, 杇, 陓, 剭, 窏, 腛, 鴮, 螐, 媉, 汚, 鵐 <- that's 24, but not all of them.
Second tone, "wu2":
無, 吳, 吾, 梧, 巫, 蕪, 唔, 蜈, 誣, 毋, 亡, 牾, 膴, 麌... etc. etc. <- again, just some of them.

etc. etc.

The point I wish to make is this, whether it be "kong" or "wu" or any other Chinese pinyin term, there are an awful lot of homophones. So, just seeing that the pinyin is the same, and trying to make connections, is a surefire way of jumbling a whole lot of things up.

After reading the above, I find it incredible that anyone can communicate at all using this language!

:shock:
As it has been said before, meaning lies not in words, but in sentences.
White Lotus
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Re: Wu.

Post by White Lotus »

:namaste: Venerable Hui Feng,

thank you... its in the sentence. its in everything.

this is it. this is no, this is yes, this is neither yes, nor no, both, oh darn it (the sock)...

i hope you have/had a nice day.

with respect, White Lotus.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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some1
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Re: Wu.

Post by some1 »

Chinese is not written in phonetic characters and it is impossible to transliterate Chinese characters using any phonetic characters (including Pinyin).

It is not uncommon that the same character has different pronunciation in different context and culture. As what Ven Huifeng mentioned above, the same pronunciation can also apply to many different characters of different meanings.

Hence, we can never be precise without knowing the exact Chinese characters, otherwise, we have to figure it out in the context of a sentence (this applies when we are using Chinese as a spoken language, it is actually not that difficult to pick up the meaning by its context).
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SunWuKong
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Re: Wu.

Post by SunWuKong »

wu refers to the primordial, and its referenced in satori because of that
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Mantrik
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Re: Wu.

Post by Mantrik »

Is 7.5 years a record for awakening a long dead thread? lol :)

(btw I was also taught the reply was also a pun on 'woof' so presumably pronunciation is guided by that. )
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Re: Wu.

Post by SunWuKong »

You're totally right, but 7.5 years -poof- gone like that
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