Best english translation of the bardo thodol?

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Fortyeightvows
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Best english translation of the bardo thodol?

Post by Fortyeightvows » Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:00 am

I'm interested in hearing the opinions of the members here on which english translation of the bardo thodol is the best and why.

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Grigoris
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Re: Best english translation of the bardo thodol?

Post by Grigoris » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:15 am

Gyurme Dorje's translation "The Tibetan Book of the Dead", with a foreword and introduction by HHDL, published by Penguin. It is the most complete version.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Simon E.
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Re: Best english translation of the bardo thodol?

Post by Simon E. » Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:16 pm

I would recommend Francesca Feemantle and Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche's translation..published by Shambala.
"Any major dude with half a heart
Will surely tell you my friend,
Any minor world that breaks apart
Can fall together again.
Any major dude will tell you."

Steely Dan.

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Grigoris
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Re: Best english translation of the bardo thodol?

Post by Grigoris » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:26 pm

Simon E. wrote:I would recommend Francesca Feemantle and Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche's translation..published by Shambala.
It's a decent version but it's missing lot's of sections. Actually, I am unsure which is the better (philological) translation, as I cannot read Tibetan. I'm going on content.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Simon E.
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Re: Best english translation of the bardo thodol?

Post by Simon E. » Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:32 pm

It might be Greg that no one single translation covers it all in terms of the central tenets.
"Any major dude with half a heart
Will surely tell you my friend,
Any minor world that breaks apart
Can fall together again.
Any major dude will tell you."

Steely Dan.

Pero
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Re: Best english translation of the bardo thodol?

Post by Pero » Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:13 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:Gyurme Dorje's translation "The Tibetan Book of the Dead", with a foreword and introduction by HHDL, published by Penguin. It is the most complete version.
I thought it was the complete version?
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Paul
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Re: Best english translation of the bardo thodol?

Post by Paul » Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:35 pm

Pero wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:Gyurme Dorje's translation "The Tibetan Book of the Dead", with a foreword and introduction by HHDL, published by Penguin. It is the most complete version.
I thought it was the complete version?
That's my understanding too.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell

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Re: Best english translation of the bardo thodol?

Post by Punya » Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:45 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:Gyurme Dorje's translation "The Tibetan Book of the Dead", with a foreword and introduction by HHDL, published by Penguin. It is the most complete version.
One of my teachers, who is a published translater himself, recommended this version.
Just as the trunk of an ordinary tree
Lying in the forests of the Malaya mountains
Absorbs the perfume of sandal from the moist leaves and branches
So you come to resemble who whomever you follow.

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rleebaker
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Re: Best english translation of the bardo thodol?

Post by rleebaker » Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:19 am

to those of you asking about Gyurme Dorje's translation "The Tibetan Book of the Dead", Yes, it is the most complete translation, to date. There is more to translate and is, as of yet, unavailable in English. WY Evans Wantz version was 3 chapters. Many drew the wrong conclusion that it was THE entire book. It was at the time IF one understands "available in English" as the pretext. Just as with many ancient texts we also need to understand often Chapters and Chapter breaks were added by the translator. Often these breaks (to allow many in the West to better understand the text) are "best guesses" of the translators and may have not been the intent of the original author. In the original text many of today's Chapter breaks did not occur. Why they were added you'd need to ask the translators. My thought it to maintain the flow of the perceived short-attention spanned reader in the West. Who knows? We also need to remember our own personal understanding of the definition of ANY given word, may or may not be the understanding of the definition of the given translator. And IF the translator translated it correctly is also often in question as evidenced in the numerous different word terms used by a variety of translators. There is no translation that is 100% accurate. Many also fall into error building a belief system around their own error filled definition of a given word. Ancient saying, "Most, (I add, if not all) or what passes for religion is man projecting his own image onto his "god" (read previous sentence to understand this misunderstood three letter word) and worshiping himself (the image he has of his own error filled belief system).

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Malcolm
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Re: Best english translation of the bardo thodol?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:57 pm

rleebaker wrote: Just as with many ancient texts we also need to understand often Chapters and Chapter breaks were added by the translator.
In this case the chapter breaks and chapters are in the original text as written down by Karma Lingpa.
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Re: Best english translation of the bardo thodol?

Post by WuMing » Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:29 pm

What about the new translation done by Elio Guarisco The Tibetan Book of the Dead: Awakening Upon Dying?

Has anybody read it? Any thoughts about it?
今以佛眼觀之佛與眾生同住解脫之床。無此無彼無二平等。
Now, observing with the eye of the Buddha, both the Buddha and ordinary beings are in the same liberated state. There is neither this nor that: there is only non-duality and identity.
- 空海 Kūkai in Unjigi 吽字義 The Meaning of the Letter Hūṃ
- Kūkai on the Philosophy of Language by Takagi Shingen and Dreitlein Eijō
_______
Śrī Singha said to Padmasambhava:
Since buddhas and sentient beings are inseparable and the same, it is necessary to respect all sentient beings as being on the same level with the buddhas. Can you?
- translated by Malcolm N. Smith

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Re: Best english translation of the bardo thodol?

Post by odysseus » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:10 am

W Y Evans Wentz. The original Enligsh translation, nothing beats that one.
Let a man not seek for the respect of his peers, but let him seek wisdom.

-- Dhammapada

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Re: Best english translation of the bardo thodol?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:32 am

WuMing wrote:What about the new translation done by Elio Guarisco The Tibetan Book of the Dead: Awakening Upon Dying?

Has anybody read it? Any thoughts about it?

I really loved it personally. I have no idea about the accuracy of translation or anything, but I thought this edition was wonderful...mainly for the act that it includes a sizeable chunk of commentary and explanatory material from ChNN, and is presented in a Dzogchen context. My only previous experience was with the Trungpa/Fremantle version.
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Re: Best english translation of the bardo thodol?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:40 am

odysseus wrote:W Y Evans Wentz. The original Enligsh translation, nothing beats that one.
surely you are kidding,
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Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Malcolm
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Re: Best english translation of the bardo thodol?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:41 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
WuMing wrote:What about the new translation done by Elio Guarisco The Tibetan Book of the Dead: Awakening Upon Dying?

Has anybody read it? Any thoughts about it?

I really loved it personally. I have no idea about the accuracy of translation or anything, but I thought this edition was wonderful...mainly for the act that it includes a sizeable chunk of commentary and explanatory material from ChNN, and is presented in a Dzogchen context. My only previous experience was with the Trungpa/Fremantle version.

The Bardo Thos grol is Dzogchen through and through
Atikosha
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Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: Best english translation of the bardo thodol?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:13 am

Malcolm wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
WuMing wrote:What about the new translation done by Elio Guarisco The Tibetan Book of the Dead: Awakening Upon Dying?

Has anybody read it? Any thoughts about it?

I really loved it personally. I have no idea about the accuracy of translation or anything, but I thought this edition was wonderful...mainly for the act that it includes a sizeable chunk of commentary and explanatory material from ChNN, and is presented in a Dzogchen context. My only previous experience was with the Trungpa/Fremantle version.

The Bardo Thos grol is Dzogchen through and through
I know this now.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

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Re: Best english translation of the bardo thodol?

Post by HandsomeMonkeyking » Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:31 am

odysseus wrote:W Y Evans Wentz. The original Enligsh translation, nothing beats that one.
It might be interesting to read the foreword of 'Self-Liberation Through Seeing with Naked Awareness' by ChNN:

https://books.google.at/books?id=dy0tDQ ... &q&f=false

It clearly sais that this is not the case.

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Re: Best english translation of the bardo thodol?

Post by odysseus » Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:55 pm

Malcolm wrote:
odysseus wrote:W Y Evans Wentz. The original Enligsh translation, nothing beats that one.
surely you are kidding,
No, actually this is my first reading! It has a charming attitude of old English understanding. I don't even know if there is anything better.
Let a man not seek for the respect of his peers, but let him seek wisdom.

-- Dhammapada

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Malcolm
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Re: Best english translation of the bardo thodol?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:16 pm

odysseus wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
odysseus wrote:W Y Evans Wentz. The original Enligsh translation, nothing beats that one.
surely you are kidding,
No, actually this is my first reading! It has a charming attitude of old English understanding. I don't even know if there is anything better.
It has the charming attitude of being completely wrong in so many ways.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: Best english translation of the bardo thodol?

Post by climb-up » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:55 pm

HandsomeMonkeyking wrote:
odysseus wrote:W Y Evans Wentz. The original Enligsh translation, nothing beats that one.
It might be interesting to read the foreword of 'Self-Liberation Through Seeing with Naked Awareness' by ChNN:

https://books.google.at/books?id=dy0tDQ ... &q&f=false

It clearly sais that this is not the case.
Additionally, I believe it's in that book, John Reynolds has an afterwards that breaks down some of Evans-Wentz's serious and varied misunderstandings of the book and the teaching and some of the history and perspective of Evans-Wentz.

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