Hindu with circumflex?

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Nicholas Weeks
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Hindu with circumflex?

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:15 pm

While reading an old 1930s book I noticed Hindû used with a diacritical. Same with Hindûsthân. Nowadays I do not see that, is or was that legitimate then?

Maybe like nirvana, hindu is been Englished so often, the diacriticals are ignored??
Glorious one, creator of all goodness, Mañjuśrī, his glorious eminence!
Manjushri-namasamgiti

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Hindu with circumflex?

Post by Kim O'Hara » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:50 pm

:coffee:

I suspect you're right, Will, but the word's history is tangled enough that any spelling you can think of - and a few you can't - will have been used in the past.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/Hindu
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/h_meaning.asp
“Many scholars and historians have concluded that the word ‘Hindu’ was coined by the ancient invaders who could not accurately pronounce the name of the River Sindhu. According to Sir Monier Williams, the famous Sanskrit lexicographer, the words ‘Hindu’ and ‘India’ evidently do not possess any indigenous roots. Neither these words are found in any Buddhist or Jain texts, nor are they inscribed in any of the 23 official languages of India.

Some sources report that when Alexander-the Great first invaded India around 325 B.C., he renamed the River Sindhu as ‘Indu’. He dropped the first letter ‘S’ from the word, coining a much simpler word for the Greeks to pronounce. Eventually, the river came to be known as ‘Indus’. Alexander’s Macedonian forces thereafter called the land which was east to the river Indus as India, a name mainly recognized by the British. Before this, the land was mostly known as ‘Bharat Varsha’ in the Vedic era and many people still prefer to call the land by this name.
(This is quoted on another page but its source is not given.)

Personally, seeing it spelled "Hindoo" makes me happy because it takes me straight back to the Raj and some of my favourite childhood books.

:smile:
Kim

tingdzin
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Re: Hindu with circumflex?

Post by tingdzin » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:42 am

Actually, the "h"/ "s" difference is from the difference between Indic and Iranian languages; hence the Vedic "asura" being of the same root as the "Ahura" in the Zoroastrian "Ahura Mazda".

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Hindu with circumflex?

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:18 am

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:15 pm
While reading an old 1930s book I noticed Hindû used with a diacritical. Same with Hindûsthân. Nowadays I do not see that, is or was that legitimate then?

Maybe like nirvana, hindu is been Englished so often, the diacriticals are ignored??
The word Hindū is actually Persian. The Sanskrit is síndhu,as mentioned above.
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

pothigai
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Re: Hindu with circumflex?

Post by pothigai » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:26 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:18 am
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:15 pm
While reading an old 1930s book I noticed Hindû used with a diacritical. Same with Hindûsthân. Nowadays I do not see that, is or was that legitimate then?

Maybe like nirvana, hindu is been Englished so often, the diacriticals are ignored??
The word Hindū is actually Persian. The Sanskrit is síndhu,as mentioned above.
Hindu is from Avestan Persian AFAIK. In Farsi it's hendi (ہندی).
ہستی اپنی حباب کی سی ہے
یہ نمائش سراب کی سی ہے

hasti apni habaab ki si hai
yeh numaaish saraab ki si hai

Like a bubble is your existence
This display is like an illusion

- Mir Taqi Mir (1725-1810)

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Hindu with circumflex?

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:28 am

pothigai wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:26 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:18 am
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:15 pm
While reading an old 1930s book I noticed Hindû used with a diacritical. Same with Hindûsthân. Nowadays I do not see that, is or was that legitimate then?

Maybe like nirvana, hindu is been Englished so often, the diacriticals are ignored??
The word Hindū is actually Persian. The Sanskrit is síndhu,as mentioned above.
Hindu is from Avestan Persian AFAIK. In Farsi it's hendi (ہندی).
We learn more every day.

I had just assumed Farsi would be a descendent of Avestan.
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Hindu with circumflex?

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:49 am

One dictionary says origin is Urdu, from Persian hindū, from Hind, India... :shrug:
Glorious one, creator of all goodness, Mañjuśrī, his glorious eminence!
Manjushri-namasamgiti

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Hindu with circumflex?

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:09 am

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:49 am
One dictionary says origin is Urdu, from Persian hindū, from Hind, India... :shrug:
Wiktionary to the rescue:

Hindū: From Persian هندو‎ (Hindū, “Indian, Hindu”), from Middle Persian hndwk' (Hindūg, “Indian”), from hnd (Hind, “India”), from Old Persian hindu-, “India”, from Sanskrit सिन्धु (síndhu, “river, stream; Indus”), from Proto-Indo-Aryan *síndʰuṣ, from Proto-Indo-Iranian *sindʰuš (“river”).

hndwk': From Old Persian hinduš, from Sanskrit सिन्धु (sindhu, “the Indus River”) or Proto-Iranian *sindʰu. Also see hnd (hind).
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Hindu with circumflex?

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:09 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:09 am
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:49 am
One dictionary says origin is Urdu, from Persian hindū, from Hind, India... :shrug:
Wiktionary to the rescue:

Hindū: From Persian هندو‎ (Hindū, “Indian, Hindu”), from Middle Persian hndwk' (Hindūg, “Indian”), from hnd (Hind, “India”), from Old Persian hindu-, “India”, from Sanskrit सिन्धु (síndhu, “river, stream; Indus”), from Proto-Indo-Aryan *síndʰuṣ, from Proto-Indo-Iranian *sindʰuš (“river”).

hndwk': From Old Persian hinduš, from Sanskrit सिन्धु (sindhu, “the Indus River”) or Proto-Iranian *sindʰu. Also see hnd (hind).
Its hard to find wiktionary's citations but this comes from

MacKenzie, D. N. (1971) A concise Pahlavi dictionary, London, New York, Toronto: Oxford University Press
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

pothigai
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Re: Hindu with circumflex?

Post by pothigai » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:32 am

I asked some Farsi speakers, they said that 'hendu' refers to roughly the same thing as the English word 'Hindu', and 'hendi' refers to the same thing as the English word 'Indian'. The reason it's 'hendu' and not 'hindu' is because there was a phonological shift in Persian in which short 'i' became a short 'e'.
ہستی اپنی حباب کی سی ہے
یہ نمائش سراب کی سی ہے

hasti apni habaab ki si hai
yeh numaaish saraab ki si hai

Like a bubble is your existence
This display is like an illusion

- Mir Taqi Mir (1725-1810)

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