簡 & 集

Looking for translations, or for help with translations and transliterations? This is the place.
Post Reply
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1685
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

簡 & 集

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:42 am

This is from another thread.
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:34 pm
I think 諸般若簡集綱要 is something like
諸般若 many prajñāpāramitā 簡 manuscripts 集綱要 [ I] collected [from them] essential points
IMO that is more likely but I am also likely to be wrong
I'm something of am amatuer Chinese-language enthusiast, but am hardly fluent.

In the above, I guess 簡 to mean "manuscript" based on context and its usage in modern two-part constructions with meanings like "folio" and "résumé".

But the simpler thing is that is could mean "simply collected" (簡集)

Here is a fuller context, T33.543.b.15

觀自在菩薩 第四判文解釋。於此經中總有三分。初明能觀智次舍利子下辨所觀境。後以無所得故下顯所得果。所以無序及流通者於諸般若簡集綱要。故唯正宗無序流通如觀音經不具三分。

And the full context:

http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/T33n1711_001
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1685
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: 簡 & 集

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:28 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:42 am
This is from another thread.
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:34 pm
I think 諸般若簡集綱要 is something like
諸般若 many prajñāpāramitā 簡 manuscripts 集綱要 [ I] collected [from them] essential points
IMO that is more likely but I am also likely to be wrong
I'm something of am amatuer Chinese-language enthusiast, but am hardly fluent.

In the above, I guess 簡 to mean "manuscript" based on context and its usage in modern two-part constructions with meanings like "folio" and "résumé".

But the simpler thing is that is could mean "simply collected" (簡集)

Here is a fuller context, T33.543.b.15

觀自在菩薩 第四判文解釋。於此經中總有三分。初明能觀智次舍利子下辨所觀境。後以無所得故下顯所得果。所以無序及流通者於諸般若簡集綱要。故唯正宗無序流通如觀音經不具三分。

And the full context:

http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/T33n1711_001
I should have clarified the intent of my post.

簡=manuscript is a bit eccentric, because it is a guess. but is it nonsense?
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

MiphamFan
Posts: 954
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:46 am

Re: 簡 & 集

Post by MiphamFan » Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:36 am

"simply collect"/"simple collection" was my immediate intuition as a native speaker of Mandarin.

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1685
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: 簡 & 集

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:13 am

Yeah, I figured that might be the case

It was largely based on it's usage in 简历 more or less, and too much guesswork.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

MiphamFan
Posts: 954
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:46 am

Re: 簡 & 集

Post by MiphamFan » Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:40 am

Malcolm quoted a translation of this passage already:
Since [this text] selects the essential outlines from all the Prajñāpāramitāsūtras, it has only the main chapter, without introduction and conclusion, just as the Kuan-yin ching (Avalokite$vara-s^tra) is not composed of three sections.
An English Translation of the Banya Paramilda simgyeong chan: Wonch'uk's Commentary on the Heart Sutra(Prajnaparamita-hrdaya-sutra). B. Hyun Choo

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1685
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: 簡 & 集

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:18 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:40 am
Malcolm quoted a translation of this passage already:
Since [this text] selects the essential outlines from all the Prajñāpāramitāsūtras, it has only the main chapter, without introduction and conclusion, just as the Kuan-yin ching (Avalokite$vara-s^tra) is not composed of three sections.
An English Translation of the Banya Paramilda simgyeong chan: Wonch'uk's Commentary on the Heart Sutra(Prajnaparamita-hrdaya-sutra). B. Hyun Choo
What do you think the 簡 is appearing as here? I realize it may not get it's own word in English.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

MiphamFan
Posts: 954
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:46 am

Re: 簡 & 集

Post by MiphamFan » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:27 am

簡集 is a compoun\d: https://cidian.wenku1.com/%E7%B0%A1%E9%9B%86/ from that definition it simply means "review and combine".
於此經中總有三分。初明能觀智次舍利子下辨所觀境。後以無所得故下顯所得果。所以無序及流通者於諸般若簡集綱要。故唯正宗無序流通如觀音經不具三分。
This is the translation of the whole chunk above:
The Heart [S^tra] is generally divided into three parts: The first
part, [from “Kuan‐zizai Bodhisattva … .” to “crosses over all sufferings
and calamities]” clarifies the contemplating wisdom; the second part,
from “Ś2riputra … ” [to “there is no wisdom, no attainment”] illustrates
the cognitive-object contemplated; the last part, from “because there is
no attainment” [to the end] reveals the fruit attained. There is no
introduction or conclusion in this [s^tra]. Since [this text] selects the
essential outlines from all the Praj@2p2ramit2-s^tras
, it has only the main
chapter, without introduction and conclusion, just as the Kuan-yin ching
(Avalokite$vara-s^tra) is not composed of three sections.
The Chinese is very abbreviated and doesn't have neat subtopic headings like the translation, I bolded the equivalent parts.

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1685
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: 簡 & 集

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:41 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:27 am
簡集 is a compoun\d: https://cidian.wenku1.com/%E7%B0%A1%E9%9B%86/ from that definition it simply means "review and combine".
於此經中總有三分。初明能觀智次舍利子下辨所觀境。後以無所得故下顯所得果。所以無序及流通者於諸般若簡集綱要。故唯正宗無序流通如觀音經不具三分。
Aaaaah. Thank you for that resource. So 簡 when it appears in 簡歷 is more in the sense of "review of life-experience"?
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

MiphamFan
Posts: 954
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:46 am

Re: 簡 & 集

Post by MiphamFan » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:49 am

I don't think so.

Just translating it directly as "simplified history" works pretty well as a translation of curriculum vitae.

PeterC
Posts: 518
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: 簡 & 集

Post by PeterC » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:01 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:41 am
MiphamFan wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:27 am
簡集 is a compoun\d: https://cidian.wenku1.com/%E7%B0%A1%E9%9B%86/ from that definition it simply means "review and combine".
於此經中總有三分。初明能觀智次舍利子下辨所觀境。後以無所得故下顯所得果。所以無序及流通者於諸般若簡集綱要。故唯正宗無序流通如觀音經不具三分。
Aaaaah. Thank you for that resource. So 簡 when it appears in 簡歷 is more in the sense of "review of life-experience"?
The classical use of "简" is in almost all cases very close to the modern sense of "simplified", e.g. 简单, 简明, 简体, 简易, 简化, etc.

The only usage I can think of that falls outside that remit would be "简书", which has now been used as the name of a Chinese tech company, but in classical Chinese (if I remember correctly) referred to various forms of official letter. If that was how Jayarava was reading it, he's way off.

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1685
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: 簡 & 集

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:06 am

PeterC wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:01 am
If that was how Jayarava was reading it, he's way off.
No, I think he was confusing 簡 and 集 generally. Perhaps it was a typo. His claim was that 簡 meant "glean", but specifically in a superficial sense of the word.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

PeterC
Posts: 518
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: 簡 & 集

Post by PeterC » Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:13 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:06 am
PeterC wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:01 am
If that was how Jayarava was reading it, he's way off.
No, I think he was confusing 簡 and 集 generally. Perhaps it was a typo. His claim was that 簡 meant "glean", but specifically in a superficial sense of the word.
I think this is where his lack of language training is hindering him. "Glean" has a more specific sense of extracting something from a broader mass, perhaps emphasizing the effort involved or the breadth of the source material ("this was knowledge that he had gleaned from many years of hard study"). "简" is a neutral term for simplification that would only take on that sort of meaning in composition, and hence is not well translated by "glean". In contemporary and (I think) also classical Chinese you would employ other language to indicate that. (For instance, the famous phrase from <九成宫>, “人玩其华,我取其实”.)

But in any case he's translating "简集纲要”, and he needs to read those four characters together as a term describing the type of document he's looking at, rather than playing semantics with one or two of them in isolation. That I think is where he's gone completely wrong here.

Orgyen
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:20 pm

Re: 簡 & 集

Post by Orgyen » Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:26 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:42 am
This is from another thread.
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:34 pm
I think 諸般若簡集綱要 is something like
諸般若 many prajñāpāramitā 簡 manuscripts 集綱要 [ I] collected [from them] essential points
IMO that is more likely but I am also likely to be wrong
I'm something of am amatuer Chinese-language enthusiast, but am hardly fluent.

In the above, I guess 簡 to mean "manuscript" based on context and its usage in modern two-part constructions with meanings like "folio" and "résumé".

But the simpler thing is that is could mean "simply collected" (簡集)

Here is a fuller context, T33.543.b.15

觀自在菩薩 第四判文解釋。於此經中總有三分。初明能觀智次舍利子下辨所觀境。後以無所得故下顯所得果。所以無序及流通者於諸般若簡集綱要。故唯正宗無序流通如觀音經不具三分。

And the full context:

http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/T33n1711_001
諸般若 = all these prajñāpāramitā

简集 =manuscript set

纲要 =essential points

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1685
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: 簡 & 集

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:00 pm

Orgyen wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:26 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:42 am
This is from another thread.
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:34 pm
I think 諸般若簡集綱要 is something likeIMO that is more likely but I am also likely to be wrong
I'm something of am amatuer Chinese-language enthusiast, but am hardly fluent.

In the above, I guess 簡 to mean "manuscript" based on context and its usage in modern two-part constructions with meanings like "folio" and "résumé".

But the simpler thing is that is could mean "simply collected" (簡集)

Here is a fuller context, T33.543.b.15

觀自在菩薩 第四判文解釋。於此經中總有三分。初明能觀智次舍利子下辨所觀境。後以無所得故下顯所得果。所以無序及流通者於諸般若簡集綱要。故唯正宗無序流通如觀音經不具三分。

And the full context:

http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/T33n1711_001
諸般若 = all these prajñāpāramitā

简集 =manuscript set

纲要 =essential points
On what grounds do you agree that 简集 can be "manuscript set/collection"? I am just wondering.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

Orgyen
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:20 pm

Re: 簡 & 集

Post by Orgyen » Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:31 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:00 pm
Orgyen wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:26 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:42 am
This is from another thread.I'm something of am amatuer Chinese-language enthusiast, but am hardly fluent.

In the above, I guess 簡 to mean "manuscript" based on context and its usage in modern two-part constructions with meanings like "folio" and "résumé".

But the simpler thing is that is could mean "simply collected" (簡集)

Here is a fuller context, T33.543.b.15

觀自在菩薩 第四判文解釋。於此經中總有三分。初明能觀智次舍利子下辨所觀境。後以無所得故下顯所得果。所以無序及流通者於諸般若簡集綱要。故唯正宗無序流通如觀音經不具三分。

And the full context:

http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/T33n1711_001
諸般若 = all these prajñāpāramitā

简集 =manuscript set

纲要 =essential points
On what grounds do you agree that 简集 can be "manuscript set/collection"? I am just wondering.
简集


Can be bamboo strips (writing on bamboo)
Can be brief / simplified
Can be letter / book

集 is gathering / collection / set

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E9%9B%86



諸般若簡集

1. Various prajñāpāramitā writing collections
outline essences

Or do you think

2. Various prajñāpāramitā simplified collections outline essences

Post Reply

Return to “Language”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests