Garchen rinpoche Yamantaka Empowerment Livestream

Here we can publicise upcoming dharma events (talks, retreats, webcasts, etc).
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Malcolm
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Re: Garchen rinpoche Yamantaka Empowerment Livestream

Post by Malcolm » Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:20 pm

Karma Jinpa wrote:
Once we've been given and actually received an empowerment, it is said we've been initiated into or entered into that deity's mandala. That's a traditional way of speaking about it. We've been let into the mandala of the deity and are part of the inner circle with our fellow vajra brothers and sisters, whereas the uninitiated are outside the boundaries of the mandala, and certain things shouldn't be shared with them for fear of breaking our samaya and/or being the cause of them giving rise to wrong views.
One can be initiated into a mandala without being given the subsequent empowerments. This is a holdover from lower tantra were indeed often disciples would oinly be gradually given empowerments over a number of days or months.
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Re: Garchen rinpoche Yamantaka Empowerment Livestream

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:23 pm

That's news to me. I stand corrected.
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"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ

Lhasa
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Re: Garchen rinpoche Yamantaka Empowerment Livestream

Post by Lhasa » Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:48 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Lhasa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Really?
Being an online-only practitioner definitely has a down side. Most online teachers teach their old-timers, not new-comers, so some important points can get skipped now and then. This is one.
I explained this to you a long time ago when there was some discussion of what it means to take an empowerment.

In short, the guru generates himself as the mandala of the deity, and then generates the mandala of the deity in front of himself. The latter mandala is the one from which one takes the empowerment. The teacher guides one to the doors of the mandala, and one requests admission. Then, one is allowed inside the mandala and shown all of the details of the mandala. This happens before the vase, secret, prajña's pristine consciousness and word empowerments happen. When the empowerment is over, the guru dissolves both mandalas. (This is why it is impossible to receive empowerments from recordings).
Thank you for repeating yourself.

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Re: Garchen rinpoche Yamantaka Empowerment Livestream

Post by pael » Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:56 pm

Miroku wrote:I am not sure but I think it was about 3 hours with the lung of the sadhana. And about 1hour or 1hour and half with the empowerment, I think.
Does it matter if you didn't watch whole lung?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

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Malcolm
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Re: Garchen rinpoche Yamantaka Empowerment Livestream

Post by Malcolm » Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:57 pm

pael wrote:
Miroku wrote:I am not sure but I think it was about 3 hours with the lung of the sadhana. And about 1hour or 1hour and half with the empowerment, I think.
Does it matter if you didn't watch whole lung?
Yes, it means you did not get the whole lung.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: Garchen rinpoche Yamantaka Empowerment Livestream

Post by Grigoris » Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:18 pm

Lhasa wrote:What does it mean to be initiated into the mandala of a deity?
Depends. At the most simplistic level it "allows" you to identify as the deity, rather than your habitual self.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Garchen rinpoche Yamantaka Empowerment Livestream

Post by Lhasa » Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:11 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Lhasa wrote:What does it mean to be initiated into the mandala of a deity?
Depends. At the most simplistic level it "allows" you to identify as the deity, rather than your habitual self.
Ok, I do know what it means, and I do do that...just did not recognize that label. Carry on. :cheers:

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Re: Garchen rinpoche Yamantaka Empowerment Livestream

Post by Lhasa » Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:29 pm

Karma Jinpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Lhasa wrote: What does it mean to be initiated into the mandala of a deity?
Really?
In the vast majority of the torwangs (vase empowerments) I attended over the years, entering the deity's mandala or being initiated into it wasn't mentioned hardly at all, if ever. Garchen Rinpoche in particular tends to emphasize visualizing the seed-syllable or deity itself over the more elaborate visualization of the entire mandala with the deity on a throne inside the palace. Only during the wangchens did mandalas really get mentioned frequently and prominently. So, weird as this question may seem to those who are more knowledgeable, there's a reason for it.

Lhasa, traditionally speaking, mandalas featured prominently in the process of tantric empowerments. Either the mandala would be emanated by the lama through siddhi, or it would be physically constructed. Back in Guru Rinpoche's day, mandalas were even used as a means of divination to determine who your yidam deity was (a flower was cast onto the mandala of the Kagyé, and whichever deity it landed on was your yidam).

I can't speak for other lineages, but in Drikung I've noticed that mandalas are still employed with Great (i.e. more elaborate) Empowerments, but often omitted for time and other reasons during the shorter empowerments we tend to get these days in the Americas and Europe. Even the descriptions during the visualization of the empowerment itself, usually only the deity/deities are mentioned, and not the boundary of the mandala and the gates of the palace. Probably has something to do with the empowerment texts being used and the translation.

Once we've been given and actually received an empowerment, it is said we've been initiated into or entered into that deity's mandala. That's a traditional way of speaking about it. We've been let into the mandala of the deity and are part of the inner circle with our fellow vajra brothers and sisters, whereas the uninitiated are outside the boundaries of the mandala, and certain things shouldn't be shared with them for fear of breaking our samaya and/or being the cause of them giving rise to wrong views.
Karma Jinpa, this is such a beautiful and caring response. Thank you. It was one of those,'I don't know that I know so I think I don't know' moments. Now I know that I know. :smile:

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Re: Garchen rinpoche Yamantaka Empowerment Livestream

Post by conebeckham » Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:43 am

"Empowerment" is a big subject.
There are Wang Kur, Wang Chen, JeNang, and Jinlabs, DonWangs, as well as TorWangs and probably others I've forgotten.

A "Full empowerment" in Mahayoga or Highest Yoga Tantra consists of 4 specific empowerments, but the first of these four, the "Vase Empowerment," can be very elaborate or very concise. It is, basically, permission to visualize oneself as the deity. It can have many elaborations, including mandalas, toothpick ceremonies, tossing of flowers, lots of implements that got bonked on one's head, chest, hands, etc. You may be required to taste something, too. Depending on your lineage, it may be the case that you'd be expected to have a WangKur or WangChen, full or great empowerment, prior to any other empowerments or blessings, torma empowerments,etc.

I know there is some contention about the issue of "on-line" empowerments, but I personally do not believe WangChens and Full Wangkurs can be given remotely, even live. I think Jenangs, "permission rituals," and Donwangs can be given this way, perhaps, live. I don't think a recording of any empowerment suffices as an empowerment, and my reasoning follows Malcolm's explanation.

If you have received a complete Vase Empowerment from a Wangkur or Wangchen, you will understand the necessity of proximity in time and space to the initiator. Honestly, to practice Vajrayana, you NEED to understand this.

I would urge anyone who wishes to practice Vajrayana, therefore, to seek out actual, physical, meat-space empowerments, at least as beginners.

But, you know, whatever.......who am I to give any advice?
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
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སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Garchen rinpoche Yamantaka Empowerment Livestream

Post by amanitamusc » Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:01 am

The best advice is your Lama's.

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Re: Garchen rinpoche Yamantaka Empowerment Livestream

Post by heart » Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:10 am

Karma Jinpa wrote: In the vast majority of the torwangs (vase empowerments) I attended over the years, entering the deity's mandala or being initiated into it wasn't mentioned hardly at all,
A torwang is a torma empowerment, a brief but complete form that include all the four empowerments. The vase empowerment is first of the four empowerments. Also, what Malcolm mentioned about entering the mandala is what the master do and it is not necessarily mentioned by the master during the empowerment, the empowerment will happen anyway.

/magnus
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Re: Garchen rinpoche Yamantaka Empowerment Livestream

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:21 pm

heart wrote:
Karma Jinpa wrote: In the vast majority of the torwangs (vase empowerments) I attended over the years, entering the deity's mandala or being initiated into it wasn't mentioned hardly at all,
A torwang is a torma empowerment, a brief but complete form that include all the four empowerments. The vase empowerment is first of the four empowerments. Also, what Malcolm mentioned about entering the mandala is what the master do and it is not necessarily mentioned by the master during the empowerment, the empowerment will happen anyway.

/magnus
For the life of me, I don't know why I translated torwang as "vase empowerment." That would be bumwang. I know better.

Must be because I've been dog tired from moving, and everyone here is recovering from the double whammy of the flu and strep.

Thank you for catching my error and correcting it, Magnus.
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"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ

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Re: Garchen rinpoche Yamantaka Empowerment Livestream

Post by Lhasa » Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:17 pm

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Re: Garchen rinpoche Yamantaka Empowerment Livestream

Post by Miroku » Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:46 pm

Is there a sadhana for daily practice? I see only the big one which has many pages and is quite complicated.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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Re: Garchen rinpoche Yamantaka Empowerment Livestream

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:36 pm

amanitamusc wrote:The best advice is your Lama's.
Dudjom Rinpoche wrote:Do not take as true anything others say, good or bad:
Do not regard it with hope or fear; do not affirm or deny it.
Allow others to say whatever they like, as if they are talking about a corpse.
Except for a qualified Lama, no one can give correct advice, not even your father or mother.
Be the judge of your actions and do not let others lead you around by the nose.
Outwardly, be persevering, and know how to live in harmony with everyone without being annoying.
~ Dudjom Rinpoche

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Re: Garchen rinpoche Yamantaka Empowerment Livestream

Post by Lhasa » Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:46 pm

Miroku wrote:Is there a sadhana for daily practice? I see only the big one which has many pages and is quite complicated.
Yes there is but it is not listed in the webstore. You'll have to write to GBI and ask for it...I don't know if they'll send it out.

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Re: Garchen rinpoche Yamantaka Empowerment Livestream

Post by Grigoris » Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:29 pm

tomamundsen wrote:
amanitamusc wrote:The best advice is your Lama's.
Dudjom Rinpoche wrote:Do not take as true anything others say, good or bad:
Do not regard it with hope or fear; do not affirm or deny it.
Allow others to say whatever they like, as if they are talking about a corpse.
Except for a qualified Lama, no one can give correct advice, not even your father or mother.
Be the judge of your actions and do not let others lead you around by the nose.
Outwardly, be persevering, and know how to live in harmony with everyone without being annoying.
~ Dudjom Rinpoche
I don't know about the "not being annoying" part, I find it difficult to pull that one off! :tongue:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

amanitamusc
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Re: Garchen rinpoche Yamantaka Empowerment Livestream

Post by amanitamusc » Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:07 pm

Grigoris wrote:
tomamundsen wrote:
amanitamusc wrote:The best advice is your Lama's.
Dudjom Rinpoche wrote:Do not take as true anything others say, good or bad:
Do not regard it with hope or fear; do not affirm or deny it.
Allow others to say whatever they like, as if they are talking about a corpse.
Except for a qualified Lama, no one can give correct advice, not even your father or mother.
Be the judge of your actions and do not let others lead you around by the nose.
Outwardly, be persevering, and know how to live in harmony with everyone without being annoying.
~ Dudjom Rinpoche
I don't know about the "not being annoying" part, I find it difficult to pull that one off! :tongue:
I agree.

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Re: Garchen rinpoche Yamantaka Empowerment Livestream

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:52 pm

Grigoris wrote:
tomamundsen wrote:
amanitamusc wrote:The best advice is your Lama's.
Dudjom Rinpoche wrote:Do not take as true anything others say, good or bad:
Do not regard it with hope or fear; do not affirm or deny it.
Allow others to say whatever they like, as if they are talking about a corpse.
Except for a qualified Lama, no one can give correct advice, not even your father or mother.
Be the judge of your actions and do not let others lead you around by the nose.
Outwardly, be persevering, and know how to live in harmony with everyone without being annoying.
~ Dudjom Rinpoche
I don't know about the "not being annoying" part, I find it difficult to pull that one off! :tongue:
:lol:

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Grigoris
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Re: Garchen rinpoche Yamantaka Empowerment Livestream

Post by Grigoris » Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:19 pm

amanitamusc wrote:I agree.
Yes, I noticed that you also have the same problem... :tongue:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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