Lama Tsultrim Allione, Jan. 7

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conebeckham
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Re: Lama Tsultrim Allione, Jan. 7

Post by conebeckham » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:15 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:33 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:42 pm
This Kagyupa needed Wang, Lung and Tri to practice pretty much any deity sadhana. At least the major ones. Frankly, Lung was the least important of the three. Riwo Sangcho, though, and a few other daily practices like Sur, ChuTor, etc., did not require anything but the Tri--which was a sort of "hands on explanation" in the course of practice.
Yeah, but you are a Drikung, they're not real Kagyupa like us Karma mob! :tongue:
ROFL

DakShang, you mean?

Not that it matters.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
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Tenma
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Re: Lama Tsultrim Allione, Jan. 7

Post by Tenma » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:43 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:46 am
Tenma wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:32 am
Virgo wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:55 am


To do the practice you have to get the tri.

Kevin
I did. That's what she said the empowerment gives(along with lung). Now what?
Now you practice the mantra with front visualisation.

Did the tri include the 21 Praises to Tara?
Unfortunately, no. I was looking forward to the 2nd Tara especially.

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Re: Lama Tsultrim Allione, Jan. 7

Post by Tenma » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:45 pm

Lhasa wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:55 pm
Tenma wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:32 am
Virgo wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:55 am


To do the practice you have to get the tri.

Kevin
I did. That's what she said the empowerment gives(along with lung). Now what?
Tenma, this was not an empowerment. It did not include the Tri. It was a lung, a reading transmission of the practice. It authorizes you to take the online course and do the practice in this lineage. The course is the Tri. You can repeat any mantra you heard in the lung.
All the details are in the course.
Something helpful with visualization is to find an image of Green Tara on the internet, put it on full screen, then gaze at it for several seconds, then close your eyes and look at the after-image. As soon as that image fades, open your eyes and gaze at Tara again. Do this over and over. No thinking, just gazing. The after-image will remain longer and become clearer the longer you do this. Garchen Rinpoche says that after-image is actually the real deity, your mind has become Green Tara, and you can recite the mantra in her presence that way, whether or not you take the course.
Oops! I guess I misheard her! But one question. Isn't the visualization supposed to be Tara as a real person(apart from organs and so on)? I read that you can't visualize a thangka nor animated/cartooned image of the deity. Is this not so?

Tenma
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Re: Lama Tsultrim Allione, Jan. 7

Post by Tenma » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:46 pm

Virgo wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:38 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:32 pm
For the mudra and music, yes.
Sure but also for certain aspects like what sylabbles to visualize, what color are those sylabbles, etc. brief practice texts don't always explain or give this information in the sadhana itself. For example, earlier Tenma was asking about the om ah hung with tara, etc.

Also if the mantra is wrathful, you must say it under your breath, and so on, these things are not written in practice texts.

Kevin
No, it was just purification mantras, heart mantra of all Taras, and Green Tara action mantra.

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Re: Lama Tsultrim Allione, Jan. 7

Post by practitioner » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:27 am

conebeckham wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:15 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:33 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:42 pm
This Kagyupa needed Wang, Lung and Tri to practice pretty much any deity sadhana. At least the major ones. Frankly, Lung was the least important of the three. Riwo Sangcho, though, and a few other daily practices like Sur, ChuTor, etc., did not require anything but the Tri--which was a sort of "hands on explanation" in the course of practice.
Yeah, but you are a Drikung, they're not real Kagyupa like us Karma mob! :tongue:
ROFL

DakShang, you mean?

Not that it matters.
This has been my experience as well. Wang, lung, and tri. But then again I also practice in Kalu Rinpoche's lineage. I always thought that was standard, it wasn't until I found dharmawheel that I heard the concept of only needing the lung.

That said, I can't imagine how you can practice with just the lung. Recite the mantra sure but how can you practice a sadhana without tri? It is quite literally the instructions for how to do it, and much more than just mudras and music.
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Re: Lama Tsultrim Allione, Jan. 7

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:44 am

practitioner wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:27 am
That said, I can't imagine how you can practice with just the lung. Recite the mantra sure but how can you practice a sadhana without tri? It is quite literally the instructions for how to do it, and much more than just mudras and music.
Maybe it is just the way lamas roll here in Greece. The lama that gave me the most lung and the least tri, did his retreat under the guidance of Kalu Rinpoche.

I have to admit that it is frustrating practicing sadhana after only receiving lung.
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Re: Lama Tsultrim Allione, Jan. 7

Post by Vasana » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:12 am

Tenma wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:45 pm
Lhasa wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:55 pm
Tenma wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:32 am


I did. That's what she said the empowerment gives(along with lung). Now what?
Tenma, this was not an empowerment. It did not include the Tri. It was a lung, a reading transmission of the practice. It authorizes you to take the online course and do the practice in this lineage. The course is the Tri. You can repeat any mantra you heard in the lung.
All the details are in the course.
Something helpful with visualization is to find an image of Green Tara on the internet, put it on full screen, then gaze at it for several seconds, then close your eyes and look at the after-image. As soon as that image fades, open your eyes and gaze at Tara again. Do this over and over. No thinking, just gazing. The after-image will remain longer and become clearer the longer you do this. Garchen Rinpoche says that after-image is actually the real deity, your mind has become Green Tara, and you can recite the mantra in her presence that way, whether or not you take the course.
Oops! I guess I misheard her! But one question. Isn't the visualization supposed to be Tara as a real person(apart from organs and so on)? I read that you can't visualize a thangka nor animated/cartooned image of the deity. Is this not so?
Not sure where you heard this. Organs is obviously a no. A thangka is a perfectly fine basis for visualization - just try and make sure it has a sense of energetic potentiality and aliveness and isn't just a static or lifeless image. Colours are not matte but luminous. You can also blend your devotion, bodhichitta aspiration and her compassionate nature and promise to help all beings and so on.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

Tenma
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Re: Lama Tsultrim Allione, Jan. 7

Post by Tenma » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:51 pm

Vasana wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:12 am
Tenma wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:45 pm
Lhasa wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:55 pm


Tenma, this was not an empowerment. It did not include the Tri. It was a lung, a reading transmission of the practice. It authorizes you to take the online course and do the practice in this lineage. The course is the Tri. You can repeat any mantra you heard in the lung.
All the details are in the course.
Something helpful with visualization is to find an image of Green Tara on the internet, put it on full screen, then gaze at it for several seconds, then close your eyes and look at the after-image. As soon as that image fades, open your eyes and gaze at Tara again. Do this over and over. No thinking, just gazing. The after-image will remain longer and become clearer the longer you do this. Garchen Rinpoche says that after-image is actually the real deity, your mind has become Green Tara, and you can recite the mantra in her presence that way, whether or not you take the course.
Oops! I guess I misheard her! But one question. Isn't the visualization supposed to be Tara as a real person(apart from organs and so on)? I read that you can't visualize a thangka nor animated/cartooned image of the deity. Is this not so?
Not sure where you heard this. Organs is obviously a no. A thangka is a perfectly fine basis for visualization - just try and make sure it has a sense of energetic potentiality and aliveness and isn't just a static or lifeless image. Colours are not matte but luminous. You can also blend your devotion, bodhichitta aspiration and her compassionate nature and promise to help all beings and so on.
From a Gelug pastor is where I got the "alive" part like a human with a body of light. Not a still image nor drawing nor animated drawing/animation nor whatnot.
Just curious, but can we change the jewels and clothes of the deity like a human? For example, blue silks this time, then green silks, then green decorative silks on this day, turquoise on another, rainbow clothes on another day, etc.? Or Tara must where the same clothes everytime?

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Re: Lama Tsultrim Allione, Jan. 7

Post by Vasana » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:28 pm

Tenma wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:51 pm
Vasana wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:12 am
Tenma wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:45 pm

Oops! I guess I misheard her! But one question. Isn't the visualization supposed to be Tara as a real person(apart from organs and so on)? I read that you can't visualize a thangka nor animated/cartooned image of the deity. Is this not so?
Not sure where you heard this. Organs is obviously a no. A thangka is a perfectly fine basis for visualization - just try and make sure it has a sense of energetic potentiality and aliveness and isn't just a static or lifeless image. Colours are not matte but luminous. You can also blend your devotion, bodhichitta aspiration and her compassionate nature and promise to help all beings and so on.
From a Gelug pastor is where I got the "alive" part like a human with a body of light. Not a still image nor drawing nor animated drawing/animation nor whatnot.
Just curious, but can we change the jewels and clothes of the deity like a human? For example, blue silks this time, then green silks, then green decorative silks on this day, turquoise on another, rainbow clothes on another day, etc.? Or Tara must where the same clothes everytime?
Well I would agree with the first part. She should feel alive as a rainbow-like body of light and as if she is right there with you and pleased that you're practising and connecting with her. You don't have to concentrate on making every part of her look hyper-realistic in your imagination but that might also be perfectly ok if it helps you connect with her presence more. Visualizing her as she appears on thangkas is also fine. As for changing her appearance, I would say this is only acceptable to the degree that you already find variations of clothes,fabrics and jewels in any existent thangkas of the form of Tara you are practising. If you fixate too much on creating a new palette of colours each time you might overlook the practice implications of why she has green skin, a Halo red like Amitabha and rainbow lights surrounding her.

You should ideally try and find a commentary on the practice and symbolism of Tara as it might answer some of these things- reading the instructions from other public sadhanas will also help build a better picture of what Tara practice entails.

In general, try not to over-complicate things. It's very easy to engage in all kinds of mental-gymnastics when engaged in deity practice but unless that's explicitly recommended, keep things simple. Also, remember that Samboghakaya Buddhas are not confined to one appearance. The 'real' Tara is not fixed in any one appearance. How Buddhas and yidams appear is completely relative to the kinds of beings the methods are provided for. Your understanding of Tara and Tara-practice will change dependent on what class of tantra the sadhana is from and ideally the more you do the practice.
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'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

Tenma
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Re: Lama Tsultrim Allione, Jan. 7

Post by Tenma » Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:42 pm

Vasana wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:28 pm
Tenma wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:51 pm
Vasana wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:12 am


Not sure where you heard this. Organs is obviously a no. A thangka is a perfectly fine basis for visualization - just try and make sure it has a sense of energetic potentiality and aliveness and isn't just a static or lifeless image. Colours are not matte but luminous. You can also blend your devotion, bodhichitta aspiration and her compassionate nature and promise to help all beings and so on.
From a Gelug pastor is where I got the "alive" part like a human with a body of light. Not a still image nor drawing nor animated drawing/animation nor whatnot.
Just curious, but can we change the jewels and clothes of the deity like a human? For example, blue silks this time, then green silks, then green decorative silks on this day, turquoise on another, rainbow clothes on another day, etc.? Or Tara must where the same clothes everytime?
Well I would agree with the first part. She should feel alive as a rainbow-like body of light and as if she is right there with you and pleased that you're practising and connecting with her. You don't have to concentrate on making every part of her look hyper-realistic in your imagination but that might also be perfectly ok if it helps you connect with her presence more. Visualizing her as she appears on thangkas is also fine. As for changing her appearance, I would say this is only acceptable to the degree that you already find variations of clothes,fabrics and jewels in any existent thangkas of the form of Tara you are practising. If you fixate too much on creating a new palette of colours each time you might overlook the practice implications of why she has green skin, a Halo red like Amitabha and rainbow lights surrounding her.

You should ideally try and find a commentary on the practice and symbolism of Tara as it might answer some of these things- reading the instructions from other public sadhanas will also help build a better picture of what Tara practice entails.

In general, try not to over-complicate things. It's very easy to engage in all kinds of mental-gymnastics when engaged in deity practice but unless that's explicitly recommended, keep things simple. Also, remember that Samboghakaya Buddhas are not confined to one appearance. The 'real' Tara is not fixed in any one appearance. How Buddhas and yidams appear is completely relative to the kinds of beings the methods are provided for. Your understanding of Tara and Tara-practice will change dependent on what class of tantra the sadhana is from and ideally the more you do the practice.
I see, okay. Thanks.

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