Universal Atman in Buddhism

Recommend, review and discuss dharma books here.
muni
Posts: 4345
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by muni » Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:48 pm

or the space between thoughts has been entered, it is probably irrelevant. There are no concepts left in that state
Then time for contemplation.
Buddha said all is empty like my brain.
Let’s make a selfie!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HySLYcu2ULA
Having meditated on love and compassion, I forgot the difference between myself and others. Yogi Milarepa.

krodha
Posts: 2209
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by krodha » Fri Aug 28, 2015 6:13 pm

Kaccāni wrote:For Nagarjuna one would need the original phrases, as he was apparently constantly playing with the ambiguity of svabhava as identity and causal independence and a translation may not catch that.
Nāgārjuna was quite clear in what he meant by svabhāva, there was no ambiguity involved.

lostitude
Posts: 216
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:48 pm

Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by lostitude » Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:38 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Kaccāni wrote:Time appears in Brahman yet Brahman does not know what time is. :rolling:

Best wishes
Kc

Something conditioned cannot appear in something unconditioned because there can never be a relationship between the conditioned and the unconditioned without the unconditioned becoming conditioned.
Would it be possible to develop this idea? what is this impossibility based on?

Thanks

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 26182
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by Malcolm » Mon Aug 31, 2015 2:59 pm

lostitude wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Kaccāni wrote:Time appears in Brahman yet Brahman does not know what time is. :rolling:

Best wishes
Kc

Something conditioned cannot appear in something unconditioned because there can never be a relationship between the conditioned and the unconditioned without the unconditioned becoming conditioned.
Would it be possible to develop this idea? what is this impossibility based on?

Thanks

There can never be any point of contact between conditioned and unconditioned phenomena.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.


-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

User avatar
smcj
Posts: 5483
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by smcj » Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:19 pm

There can never be any point of contact between conditioned and unconditioned phenomena.
Isn't that why all things are correctly seen as primordially pure?

:stirthepot:
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
*****
Once in a while you can get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right.
Robert Hunter

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 26182
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by Malcolm » Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:33 pm

smcj wrote:
There can never be any point of contact between conditioned and unconditioned phenomena.
Isn't that why all things are correctly seen as primordially pure?

:stirthepot:

This just means that all things are empty.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.


-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

lostitude
Posts: 216
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:48 pm

Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by lostitude » Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:20 pm

Malcolm wrote:

There can never be any point of contact between conditioned and unconditioned phenomena.
Ok but on what basis can you make such a statement? It's far from self-evident... so what's the rationale behind it?

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 26182
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by Malcolm » Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:44 pm

lostitude wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

There can never be any point of contact between conditioned and unconditioned phenomena.
Ok but on what basis can you make such a statement? It's far from self-evident... so what's the rationale behind it?
First you have to identify the characteristics of unconditioned phenomena. They do not arise, abide or cease — further, they are uncaused. Conditioned phenomena arise, abide and cease — further, they are caused.

Since there is radical difference in kind, there is no point of contact between the former and the latter.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.


-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

User avatar
smcj
Posts: 5483
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by smcj » Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:42 pm

Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote:
There can never be any point of contact between conditioned and unconditioned phenomena.
Isn't that why all things are correctly seen as primordially pure?
:stirthepot:
This just means that all things are empty.
Sorry, I'm in a weird mood today. Just trolling.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
*****
Once in a while you can get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right.
Robert Hunter

lostitude
Posts: 216
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:48 pm

Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by lostitude » Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:06 pm

What I don't understand, is the transition from this :
First you have to identify the characteristics of unconditioned phenomena. They do not arise, abide or cease — further, they are uncaused. Conditioned phenomena arise, abide and cease — further, they are caused.
To this :
Since there is radical difference in kind, there is no point of contact between the former and the latter
I don't see how the conclusion follows so naturally from the premise. There's no obvious logic here that I can identify. It looks more like an intuitive statement than a logical one. Unless there's a missing step in the reasoning, which you didn't include because you thought it was obvious.

Russell
Posts: 167
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 11:13 pm

Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by Russell » Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:54 pm

Is this the same thing as:
His Holiness the Dalai Lama wrote:We can also reflect upon the fact that inherent, independent existence and the absence of inherent existence are mutually exclusive. Therefore they can not reside in one mind at the same time. The wisdom realizing emptiness and the ignorant mind grasping at true existence are directly opposite to each other. Ignorant mind, grasping at true existence, lacks grounding in any valid cognition whereas the wisdom cognizing emptiness not only is valid but also has a valid foundation.
http://www.lamayeshe.com/article/chapte ... nunciation
Becasue this is more obviously true to me. But when talking about conditioned and unconditioned phenomena it seems more like pure physics with no mind involved so harder to see the logic of it.

??

lostitude
Posts: 216
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:48 pm

Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by lostitude » Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:58 pm

Soar wrote:Is this the same thing as:
His Holiness the Dalai Lama wrote:We can also reflect upon the fact that inherent, independent existence and the absence of inherent existence are mutually exclusive. Therefore they can not reside in one mind at the same time. The wisdom realizing emptiness and the ignorant mind grasping at true existence are directly opposite to each other. Ignorant mind, grasping at true existence, lacks grounding in any valid cognition whereas the wisdom cognizing emptiness not only is valid but also has a valid foundation.
http://www.lamayeshe.com/article/chapte ... nunciation
Becasue this is more obviously true to me. But when talking about conditioned and unconditioned phenomena it seems more like pure physics with no mind involved so harder to see the logic of it.

??
Even here I feel that the premise is accepted as if it was obvious, whereas it is not. When HHDL says "We can also reflect upon the fact that inherent, independent existence and the absence of inherent existence are mutually exclusive." It's like saying black (the absence of light) and white (the presence of pure light) are mutually exclusive, which is not true. Gray is a mix between black and white. So the premise is not self-evident, it needs to be explained before using a 'therefore' after it.

User avatar
treehuggingoctopus
Posts: 1437
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Location: Mudhole? Slimy? My home, this is.

Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:16 pm

Well, unconditioned = unaffected. How can X affect Y without being in the least affected by Y, or by the fact that it is affecting Y? If I change something, I necessarily change myself as I do it. Even if that change can be reduced to 'me' going from 'me as X' to 'me as X making Z happen to Y', 'I' still changes (and thus proves to the world there is no 'I').
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

User avatar
Karma Dondrup Tashi
Posts: 1517
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:13 pm

Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:25 pm

Characteristics are either mutually exclusive or not.

How can something that arises and ceases also be something that does not arise and cease?

lostitude
Posts: 216
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:48 pm

Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by lostitude » Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:28 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:Well, unconditioned = unaffected. How can X affect Y without being in the least affected by Y, or by the fact that it is affecting Y? If I change something, I necessarily change myself as I do it.
But X can change without being affected by Y, it could even change in order to affect Y. Why equate change = being affected by an external cause?
When I want to lift an object from the ground, I bend in order to grab it. The object doesn't bend me.
Also, if you think about a certain quantity of water: whether you pour it into a bowl or into a glass or a cup, the only thing that will change is its spatial distribution, but no inner change will occur. So how do you equate change with being conditioned?

lostitude
Posts: 216
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:48 pm

Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by lostitude » Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:30 pm

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:Characteristics are either mutually exclusive or not.

How can something that arises and ceases also be something that does not arise and cease?
I understand, but this is unrelated to the question of why something that does not arise and cease (=unconditioned) cannot give rise to something that arises and ceases (conditioned).

Russell
Posts: 167
Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 11:13 pm

Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by Russell » Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:43 pm

lostitude wrote:
Soar wrote:Is this the same thing as:
His Holiness the Dalai Lama wrote:We can also reflect upon the fact that inherent, independent existence and the absence of inherent existence are mutually exclusive. Therefore they can not reside in one mind at the same time. The wisdom realizing emptiness and the ignorant mind grasping at true existence are directly opposite to each other. Ignorant mind, grasping at true existence, lacks grounding in any valid cognition whereas the wisdom cognizing emptiness not only is valid but also has a valid foundation.
http://www.lamayeshe.com/article/chapte ... nunciation
Becasue this is more obviously true to me. But when talking about conditioned and unconditioned phenomena it seems more like pure physics with no mind involved so harder to see the logic of it.

??
Even here I feel that the premise is accepted as if it was obvious, whereas it is not. When HHDL says "We can also reflect upon the fact that inherent, independent existence and the absence of inherent existence are mutually exclusive." It's like saying black (the absence of light) and white (the presence of pure light) are mutually exclusive, which is not true. Gray is a mix between black and white. So the premise is not self-evident, it needs to be explained before using a 'therefore' after it.
I think there is still room for gray areas, the basic principle is that they are mutually exclusive, then the degree to which you consistently and deeply realise emptiness will be the degree to which you eliminate ignorance. The rest of that paragraph:
This kind of ascertainment can be strengthened, reinforced as it has a valid support. Therefore the more one develops it, the more one strengthens it, and it will become more and more reinforced so that one can develop it to a much higher level of power. Also one of the unique characteristics of the qualities of mind is that after one has developed it to a certain point, then one does not need to reinforce it again. It becomes a natural part of your habit.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 26182
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by Malcolm » Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:52 pm

lostitude wrote:What I don't understand, is the transition from this :
First you have to identify the characteristics of unconditioned phenomena. They do not arise, abide or cease — further, they are uncaused. Conditioned phenomena arise, abide and cease — further, they are caused.
To this :
Since there is radical difference in kind, there is no point of contact between the former and the latter
I don't see how the conclusion follows so naturally from the premise. There's no obvious logic here that I can identify. It looks more like an intuitive statement than a logical one. Unless there's a missing step in the reasoning, which you didn't include because you thought it was obvious.
The invoked principle is the homogeneity of cause and effect. Unconditioned phenomena are uncaused, and being uncaused, are incapable of acting as causes. For example, unconditioned space, defined as the simple absence of obstruction, can neither affect nor be affected by conditioned elements such as earth, water, fire or air. Why? Because the latter four elements are conditioned or compounded, and the former element, space, is unconditioned or uncompounded. Unconditioned/uncompounded [asaṃkṛta] means "that which has not been assembled out of parts."

The only other unconditioned phenomena which exist, according to Buddhadharma, are two the kinds of cessation: simple cessation, which is the mere absence of causes; and analytical cessation, which is a result of insight a.k.a., nirvana.

Emptiness is also unconditioned, but it is not included among the dharmas.
Last edited by Malcolm on Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.


-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

lostitude
Posts: 216
Joined: Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:48 pm

Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by lostitude » Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:53 pm

Soar wrote:
I think there is still room for gray areas, the basic principle is that they are mutually exclusive, then the degree to which you consistently and deeply realise emptiness will be the degree to which you eliminate ignorance. The rest of that paragraph:
This kind of ascertainment can be strengthened, reinforced as it has a valid support. Therefore the more one develops it, the more one strengthens it, and it will become more and more reinforced so that one can develop it to a much higher level of power. Also one of the unique characteristics of the qualities of mind is that after one has developed it to a certain point, then one does not need to reinforce it again. It becomes a natural part of your habit.
It may well be the case, but then just like HHDL talks about ignorant grasping when seemingly referring to theists, likewise said theists might say the same about those buddhists who use meditation to brainwash themselves into seeing emptiness everywhere. I honestly don't know where the truth lies, but on the face of it I just see a lot of certainties with no really logical basis for them. At least until now, and of course I'm not saying there is no logic, I'm simply saying I don't see it.

Also, about conditioned and unconditioned phenomena being mutually exlusive, this also makes me think about ember that sometimes emits a flame, sometimes doesn't. The fact that the flames come and go indicates nothing about the ember changing or being the same.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 26182
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by Malcolm » Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:54 pm

lostitude wrote:
Also, about conditioned and unconditioned phenomena being mutually exlusive, this also makes me think about ember that sometimes emits a flame, sometimes doesn't. The fact that the flames come and go indicates nothing about the ember changing or being the same.
This indicate that the ember changes state, with a resulting fluctuation in flames — hence an ember is conditioned.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.


-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests