Universal Atman in Buddhism

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Bakmoon
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Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by Bakmoon » Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:13 am

monktastic wrote: http://www.spiritualteachers.org/b_robe ... erview.htm
Initially, when I looked into Buddhism, I did not find the experience of no-self there either; yet I intuited that it had to be there. The falling away of the ego is common to both Hinduism and Buddhism. Therefore, it would not account for the fact that Buddhism became a separate religion, nor would it account for the Buddhist's insistence on no eternal Self - be it divine, individual or the two in one. I felt that the key difference between these two religions was the no-self experience, the falling away of the true Self, Atman-Brahman. Unfortunately, what most Buddhist authors define as the no-self experience is actually the no-ego experience. The cessation of clinging, craving, desire, the passions, etc., and the ensuing state of imperturbable peace and joy articulates the egoless state of oneness; it does not, however, articulate the no-self experience or the dimension beyond. Unless we clearly distinguish between these two very different experiences, we only confuse them, with the inevitable result that the true no-self experience becomes lost. If we think the falling away of the ego, with its ensuing transformation and oneness, is the no-self experience, then what shall we call the much further experience when this egoless oneness falls away? In actual experience there is only one thing to call it, the "no-self experience"; it lends itself to no other possible articulation.
I think Buddhism's main point is that even what the Vedantists claim to be the atman is just more consciousness, even if they think it is transpersonal, and so such consciousness falls under the critique applied to the aggregates, and as a result, Vedanta doesn't have a real falling away of the 'ego' so to speak. It's just more of the same.

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Kaccāni
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Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by Kaccāni » Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:55 pm

The Advaita-Vedantist would answer: And who observes falling away of the ego?

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Kc
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!

deff
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Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by deff » Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:14 pm

monktastic wrote:Found this to be a fascinating read:

http://www.spiritualteachers.org/b_robe ... erview.htm
Initially, when I looked into Buddhism, I did not find the experience of no-self there either; yet I intuited that it had to be there. The falling away of the ego is common to both Hinduism and Buddhism. Therefore, it would not account for the fact that Buddhism became a separate religion, nor would it account for the Buddhist's insistence on no eternal Self - be it divine, individual or the two in one. I felt that the key difference between these two religions was the no-self experience, the falling away of the true Self, Atman-Brahman. Unfortunately, what most Buddhist authors define as the no-self experience is actually the no-ego experience. The cessation of clinging, craving, desire, the passions, etc., and the ensuing state of imperturbable peace and joy articulates the egoless state of oneness; it does not, however, articulate the no-self experience or the dimension beyond. Unless we clearly distinguish between these two very different experiences, we only confuse them, with the inevitable result that the true no-self experience becomes lost. If we think the falling away of the ego, with its ensuing transformation and oneness, is the no-self experience, then what shall we call the much further experience when this egoless oneness falls away? In actual experience there is only one thing to call it, the "no-self experience"; it lends itself to no other possible articulation.
I really enjoyed reading this interview! Thanks for posting it :smile:

muni
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Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by muni » Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:35 pm

Kaccāni wrote:The Advaita-Vedantist would answer: And who observes falling away of the ego?
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

Bakmoon
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Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by Bakmoon » Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:43 pm

Kaccāni wrote:The Advaita-Vedantist would answer: And who observes falling away of the ego?

Best wishes
Kc
And the Buddhist would answer saying it is a dependently designated and impermanent consciousness that arises at that particular time.

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anjali
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Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by anjali » Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:54 am

Bakmoon wrote:I think Buddhism's main point is that even what the Vedantists claim to be the atman is just more consciousness, even if they think it is transpersonal, and so such consciousness falls under the critique applied to the aggregates, and as a result, Vedanta doesn't have a real falling away of the 'ego' so to speak. It's just more of the same.
From the Advaita POV, it's all consciousness. A couple of quotes by Ramana Maharshi:
  • Since everything is included in consciousness, consciousness is the ultimate, supreme truth [paramartha].
  • The reason why one regards reality as different from oneself is that one has not known, through enquiry, the true nature of consciousness.
  • As it is consciousness that appears as everything, those who have known the truth of consciousness have known the truth of everything.
The ego is defined as consciousness identified with the body. The end of that identification is the end of the ego. Of course that identification was never "real" to begin with. It's just ignorance. One's true nature, per Advaita, is a bodiless, space-like limitless consciousness. As Bakmoon says: more of the same consciousness--but without the imagined confinement (atman is brahman). What is consistently missing from the Advaita doctrine is any recognition of emptiness as the nature of consciousness.

As an exercise in logic, here are RM's quotes with "X" subsitituted for "consciousness". Is there an appropriate substitute for "X" in Buddhism that makes one or more of these statements meaningful?
  • Since everything is included in X, X is the ultimate, supreme truth.
  • The reason why one regards reality as different from oneself is that one has not known, through enquiry, the true nature of X.
  • As it is X that appears as everything, those who have known the truth of X have known the truth of everything.
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Malcolm
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Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by Malcolm » Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:06 am

anjali wrote:
  • Since everything is included in X, X is the ultimate, supreme truth.
  • The reason why one regards reality as different from oneself is that one has not known, through enquiry, the true nature of X.
  • As it is X that appears as everything, those who have known the truth of X have known the truth of everything.

Since everything is included in emptiness, emptiness is the ultimate, supreme truth.
The reason why one regards reality as different from oneself is that one has not known, through enquiry, the true nature of emptiness.
As it is emptiness that appears as everything, those who have known the truth of emptiness have known the truth of everything.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

smcj
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Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by smcj » Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:54 am

Malcolm wrote:Since everything is included in emptiness, emptiness is the ultimate, supreme truth.
The reason why one regards reality as different from oneself is that one has not known, through enquiry, the true nature of emptiness.
As it is emptiness that appears as everything, those who have known the truth of emptiness have known the truth of everything.
Ya know, even though I'm into the whole Shentong thing, that totally works for me.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

muni
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Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by muni » Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:24 am

more of the same consciousness--but without the imagined confinement (atman is brahman).
One thing I found interesting was the answer of an old Hindu when he was asked about God(s).
He said: in the old vedas, who were hidden for those without guidance was written:

God created everything, but who created God?
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

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Wayfarer
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Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by Wayfarer » Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:20 am

'There is, monks, that which is uncreated' (Ud 8.3)

'Who created that?' is a similar question.
Malcolm wrote:Since everything is included in emptiness, emptiness is the ultimate, supreme truth.
Perhaps you can explain to us how that can be reconciled with the statement that 'śūnyatā is taught only as a remedy for dṛṣṭi, but those who cling to śūnyatā are incurable'.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Malcolm
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Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by Malcolm » Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:41 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Since everything is included in emptiness, emptiness is the ultimate, supreme truth.
Perhaps you can explain to us how that can be reconciled with the statement that 'śūnyatā is taught only as a remedy for dṛṣṭi, but those who cling to śūnyatā are incurable'.
This is why the Vimuktasena states that Prajñāpāramita teaches the emptiness of emptiness. For example, he says:
  • Since all phenomena are empty of emptiness, that is the emptiness of emptiness. In other words, the recognition that all phenomena are empty here is the emptiness of all phenomena. Further, the reason for the emptiness of that emptiness is to avoid conceptually grasping to it [emptiness].
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Kaccāni
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Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by Kaccāni » Tue Aug 25, 2015 3:01 pm

Bakmoon wrote: And the Buddhist would answer saying it is a dependently designated and impermanent consciousness that arises at that particular time.
So the Vedantist answers "And who makes it consciousness?"
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!

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Matt J
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Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by Matt J » Tue Aug 25, 2015 3:15 pm

The Vedantin answer is that Brahman is prior to space and time, so asking space and time based questions doesn't make sense.
muni wrote:
more of the same consciousness--but without the imagined confinement (atman is brahman).
One thing I found interesting was the answer of an old Hindu when he was asked about God(s).
He said: in the old vedas, who were hidden for those without guidance was written:

God created everything, but who created God?
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche

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Kaccāni
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Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by Kaccāni » Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:29 pm

Matt J wrote:The Vedantin answer is that Brahman is prior to space and time
I particularly like the word "prior" in that sentence :)

Best wishes
Kc
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!

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Malcolm
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Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by Malcolm » Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:47 pm

Kaccāni wrote:
Matt J wrote:The Vedantin answer is that Brahman is prior to space and time
I particularly like the word "prior" in that sentence :)

Best wishes
Kc

Sure, since it is a contradiction in terms. Brahman cannot be prior to time. It is impossible, prior is a time.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Matt J
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Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by Matt J » Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:02 pm

It is difficult to find "meta-words". If you say "transcends," that is a space word.
Malcolm wrote:
Kaccāni wrote:
Matt J wrote:The Vedantin answer is that Brahman is prior to space and time
I particularly like the word "prior" in that sentence :)

Best wishes
Kc

Sure, since it is a contradiction in terms. Brahman cannot be prior to time. It is impossible, prior is a time.
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by Malcolm » Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:26 pm

You could have said Brahman is beyond time.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Matt J
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Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by Matt J » Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:03 pm

Ok, do over.
Malcolm wrote:You could have said Brahman is beyond time.
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche

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Matt J
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Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by Matt J » Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:09 pm

The Vedantin answer is that Brahman is beyond time. Time depends on Brahman.
muni wrote: God created everything, but who created God?
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: Universal Atman in Buddhism

Post by Malcolm » Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:21 pm

Matt J wrote:The Vedantin answer is that Brahman is beyond time. Time depends on Brahman.
muni wrote: God created everything, but who created God?

Time cannot depend on Brahman, time is conditioned, Brahman is not.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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