Interconnected - HH Ogyen Trinley Droje

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madhusudan
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Interconnected - HH Ogyen Trinley Droje

Post by madhusudan » Wed May 16, 2018 10:07 pm

I recently read an excerpt of the book in the title of this thread here: https://www.wisdompubs.org/blog/201701/ ... ic-freedom

Here is the opening:
Freedom is a powerful idea. But I am not sure we are always very clear what we have in mind when we speak of it. Does freedom mean doing whatever we feel like in any given moment? Does it mean having the power and liberty to exercise our will with no obstruction? Does it evoke a state in which we have shed ourselves of all obligations to others?

Many of our notions of freedom are based implicitly on the idea that we are utterly self-sustaining and separate entities. This model leads us to feel that others’ claims on us undercut our freedom. We experience our relationships as ties that bind us and limit our freedom. Based on this, we assume that we cannot all be free, because the freedom of one person comes at the cost of another’s.
This seems like a giant straw man. Who thinks or says this?

But then it continues:
When I hear what people say about freedom sometimes, it sounds to me like longing to live out the fantasy of being independent and absolutely autonomous individuals, of being free of consequences and responsibilities—that is to say, exempt from the principle of interdependence.
And, so, apparently people to whom HH has spoken do actually put forth this ridiculous position that freedom is absolute autonomy and the satisfaction of every desire without impediment. I've never been unfortunate enough to meet people like that, but I can accept that they exist.

In your experience, is this a common view? I'm sure a wide variety of viewpoints exist, but is this view held by enough people that it deserves a counterargument? In essence, is this a straw man?

Fortyeightvows
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Re: Interconnected - HH Ogyen Trinley Droje

Post by Fortyeightvows » Wed May 16, 2018 10:41 pm

Most likely this passage is a transcript from a talk.

Arnoud
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Re: Interconnected - HH Ogyen Trinley Droje

Post by Arnoud » Thu May 17, 2018 1:38 am

to feel that others’ claims on us undercut our freedom. We experience our relationships as ties that bind us and limit our freedom.
I think many people who start contemplating renunciation have these feelings. Can't imagine people who don't. :tongue:

madhusudan
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Re: Interconnected - HH Ogyen Trinley Droje

Post by madhusudan » Thu May 17, 2018 6:40 am

Arnoud wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 1:38 am
to feel that others’ claims on us undercut our freedom. We experience our relationships as ties that bind us and limit our freedom.
I think many people who start contemplating renunciation have these feelings. Can't imagine people who don't. :tongue:
Good point. I was thinking, along more secular lines, that this was meant to be critiquing the dominant culture of the West. I'm now able to see it differently.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Interconnected - HH Ogyen Trinley Droje

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu May 17, 2018 6:44 am

madhusudan wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 10:07 pm
I recently read an excerpt of the book in the title of this thread here: https://www.wisdompubs.org/blog/201701/ ... ic-freedom

Here is the opening:
Freedom is a powerful idea. But I am not sure we are always very clear what we have in mind when we speak of it. Does freedom mean doing whatever we feel like in any given moment? Does it mean having the power and liberty to exercise our will with no obstruction? Does it evoke a state in which we have shed ourselves of all obligations to others?

Many of our notions of freedom are based implicitly on the idea that we are utterly self-sustaining and separate entities. This model leads us to feel that others’ claims on us undercut our freedom. We experience our relationships as ties that bind us and limit our freedom. Based on this, we assume that we cannot all be free, because the freedom of one person comes at the cost of another’s.
This seems like a giant straw man. Who thinks or says this?

But then it continues:
When I hear what people say about freedom sometimes, it sounds to me like longing to live out the fantasy of being independent and absolutely autonomous individuals, of being free of consequences and responsibilities—that is to say, exempt from the principle of interdependence.
And, so, apparently people to whom HH has spoken do actually put forth this ridiculous position that freedom is absolute autonomy and the satisfaction of every desire without impediment. I've never been unfortunate enough to meet people like that, but I can accept that they exist.

In your experience, is this a common view? I'm sure a wide variety of viewpoints exist, but is this view held by enough people that it deserves a counterargument? In essence, is this a straw man?
IDK this pretty well describes many people I know. I would even go as far as to say that for many people I've' met (notably often those who eschew spirituality entirely, or feel spiritual practice is mainly just meant to be a pleasant activity), there is a tendency to see the pursuit of what is pleasurable and enjoyable as being the same as pursuing "the greater good".

More accurately, many of these people believe that everyone "following their bliss" or similar will lead to the most just, or happiest outcome for everyone. There is definitely a contradiction there, I see exactly what HH is saying. Of course not many people would phrase it this way, as if they did it would force confrontation with the dissonance. So it is not something people say overtly, but it is a sentiment that is evident in various aspects of their lives, and what they reveal of their world view.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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