Concise Guide to Conservatism

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:21 pm

Most of these definitions and musings are not relevant to today's political climate at all.
the thinking conservative turns to the defense of the individual against
the state. In our age and our country, the latter tendency is at work, so that the American conservative
nowadays seeks to restrain the influence of governmental agencies, rather than to buttress the political authority.
Yeah, conservatives are all over the misuse of justice system against poor people, rampant militarism and wasteful military spending, and abuses of power by the executive branch. :roll:

In short, they usually care about the effect of "bad government" on the property rights of people with means, and the rights of said people to continue running the show, and most often conveniently tend to ignore all the other instances of governance running wild.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:35 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:21 pm
Most of these definitions and musings are not relevant to today's political climate at all.
Exactly JD. Kirk and other cultural conservatives were not and are not 'political', neither in motivation nor practice. As the first page says:
Conservatives distrust “abstractions”— that is, absolute political dogmas divorced from practical experience and particular circumstances. They do believe, nevertheless, in the existence of certain abiding truths which govern the conduct of human society.
If these conservative notions regarding human nature and society were more relevant, our shallow, shrieking political zoo would benefit much.
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Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism

Post by boda » Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:07 am

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:35 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:21 pm
Most of these definitions and musings are not relevant to today's political climate at all.
Exactly JD. Kirk and other cultural conservatives were not and are not 'political', neither in motivation nor practice. As the first page says:
Conservatives distrust “abstractions”— that is, absolute political dogmas divorced from practical experience and particular circumstances. They do believe, nevertheless, in the existence of certain abiding truths which govern the conduct of human society.
If these conservative notions regarding human nature and society were more relevant, our shallow, shrieking political zoo would benefit much.
Uh, not political? Kirk was apparently quite influential politically. He was awarded the Presidential Citizens Medal by President Ronald Reagan, if that's any indication of how influential.

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Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:19 am

boda wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:59 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:29 pm
Anyway, this whole progressive vs conservative thing is a complete fabrication.

Christianity was once considered progressive and revolutionary, now it is a force of conservatism.
You're saying that's how Christianity was/is considered, but it's a fabrication? Quite an enduring falsehood.

Force of conservatism?
I have no idea what point you are trying to make, or even if you are trying to make a point, or if you are just trolling.

Did you even understand my statement?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism

Post by boda » Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:37 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:19 am
boda wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:59 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:29 pm
Anyway, this whole progressive vs conservative thing is a complete fabrication.

Christianity was once considered progressive and revolutionary, now it is a force of conservatism.
You're saying that's how Christianity was/is considered, but it's a fabrication? Quite an enduring falsehood.

Force of conservatism?
I have no idea what point you are trying to make, or even if you are trying to make a point, or if you are just trolling.

Did you even understand my statement?
The question is: do you understand your statements (plural).

How do you explain Christianity going from being considered progressive and revolutionary to conservative, or rather, "a force of conservatism," whatever that is supposed to mean?

If you're true to form, you'll level some insult at me and not explain yourself, so my expectations of a civil and edifying response are very low.

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Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:58 pm

boda wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:37 pm
The question is: do you understand your statements (plural).
I made the statements, so obviously I understand them.
How do you explain Christianity going from being considered progressive and revolutionary to conservative...
How did communism go from being a force for revolutionary change and freedom from tyranny, to a system of oppression?



"a force of conservatism," whatever that is supposed to mean?
The driving force of current conservatism.
If you're true to form, you'll level some insult at me and not explain yourself, so my expectations of a civil and edifying response are very low.
Oh look, another ad hom. Two in one post. Yet another statement not worthy of an intelligent rebuttal.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism

Post by Nemo » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:43 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:58 pm
boda wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:37 pm
The question is: do you understand your statements (plural).
I made the statements, so obviously I understand them.
How do you explain Christianity going from being considered progressive and revolutionary to conservative...
How did communism go from being a force for revolutionary change and freedom from tyranny, to a system of oppression?



"a force of conservatism," whatever that is supposed to mean?
The driving force of current conservatism.
If you're true to form, you'll level some insult at me and not explain yourself, so my expectations of a civil and edifying response are very low.
Oh look, another ad hom. Two in one post. Yet another statement not worthy of an intelligent rebuttal.
Why are you thinking that conservatives can be fair and thoughtful? They are literally denying global warming and preaching less government so there is no competition to a dictatorship of corrupt billionaires. They are risking global extinction of the human species for profit. They frame issues in elaborate lies to fool people. Doesn't this seem textbook sociopathic?

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Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:50 pm

Nemo wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:43 pm
Why are you thinking that conservatives can be fair and thoughtful? They are literally denying global warming and preaching less government so there is no competition to a dictatorship of corrupt billionaires. They are risking global extinction of the human species for profit. They frame issues in elaborate lies to fool people. Doesn't this seem textbook sociopathic?
Because I have read about the work done by Roosevelt, for example, and so I believe that there are conservatives out there that are capable of somewhat intelligent, well thought out policies and actions for general public good.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism

Post by boda » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:00 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:58 pm
boda wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:37 pm
The question is: do you understand your statements (plural).
I made the statements, so obviously I understand them.
How do you explain Christianity going from being considered progressive and revolutionary to conservative...
How did communism go from being a force for revolutionary change and freedom from tyranny, to a system of oppression?



"a force of conservatism," whatever that is supposed to mean?
The driving force of current conservatism.
If you're true to form, you'll level some insult at me and not explain yourself, so my expectations of a civil and edifying response are very low.
Oh look, another ad hom. Two in one post. Yet another statement not worthy of an intelligent rebuttal.
You never disappoint.

How did communism go from being a force for revolutionary change and freedom from tyranny, to a system of oppression?

In the Soviet Union? Many reasons, not the least of which Marxism was never meant to be developed within a populace of illiterate peasants.

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Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism

Post by Queequeg » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:04 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:50 pm
Because I have read about the work done by Roosevelt, for example, and so I believe that there are conservatives out there that are capable of somewhat intelligent, well thought out policies and actions for general public good.
TR? or FDR?

One was Republican, the other Democrat, but both were progressive... Latter much more so.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism

Post by Queequeg » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:06 pm

boda wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:00 pm
In the Soviet Union? Many reasons, not the least of which Marxism was never meant to be developed within a populace of illiterate peasants.
Anyone seen the Chernobyl miniseries?

If that is an accurate picture of how the Soviet Union was (not) functioning, its no wonder it collapsed.

Actually, come to think of it, Death of Stalin kind of captured the same dynamics, but for comedic value. Great movie. Highly recommend.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism

Post by boda » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:23 pm

So it was a rhetorical question and Grigoris was struggling to say that he can't explain the ch-ch-ch-ch-changes?

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Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism

Post by Nemo » Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:28 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:50 pm
Nemo wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:43 pm
Why are you thinking that conservatives can be fair and thoughtful? They are literally denying global warming and preaching less government so there is no competition to a dictatorship of corrupt billionaires. They are risking global extinction of the human species for profit. They frame issues in elaborate lies to fool people. Doesn't this seem textbook sociopathic?
Because I have read about the work done by Roosevelt, for example, and so I believe that there are conservatives out there that are capable of somewhat intelligent, well thought out policies and actions for general public good.
Roosevelt(a wealthy Democrat), even by extremely conservative biographers like Conrad Black, convinced half the rich that if they didn't compromise there would be a revolution. The communist party was very powerful in America at that time. Convincing half the rich to turn on the other half to keep their wealth was not altruism. It was an attempt to save capitalism. His Secretary of Agriculture Henry Wallace was an amazing environmentalist and saved the Midwest from the Dust Bowl. Conservative Republicans pushed back against his soil conservation efforts every step of the way. They would have rather seen the Midwest become a desert.

Russia has been run by an anticommunist staunch conservative for over 20 years. He follows The Concise Guide to Conservatism very closely. It doesn't look that amazing to me.

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Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:01 pm

boda wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:23 pm
So it was a rhetorical question and Grigoris was struggling to say that he can't explain the ch-ch-ch-ch-changes?
Eight Worldly Dharmas.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism

Post by boda » Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:08 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:01 pm
boda wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:23 pm
So it was a rhetorical question and Grigoris was struggling to say that he can't explain the ch-ch-ch-ch-changes?
Eight Worldly Dharmas.
I'll remember that the next time I claim something is false but can't explain why it's false. It's ch-ch-ch-ch-changes, turn and face the Eight Worldly Dharmas... But seriously, I would never do that.

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Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:11 pm

boda wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:08 pm
But seriously, I would never do that.
That is probably because you are not a Buddhist, so a Buddhist explanation just doesn't spin your dials.

But this is a Buddhist forum, so you better get used to hearing Buddhist explanations.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism

Post by Queequeg » Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:14 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:11 pm
boda wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:08 pm
But seriously, I would never do that.
That is probably because you are not a Buddhist, so a Buddhist explanation just doesn't spin your dials.

But this is a Buddhist forum, so you better get used to hearing Buddhist explanations.
Buddhism being an ism is against conservative ideals. Oh, principles, because conservatives don't have ideals. Or principals.

They just keep it real, yo.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Wed Dec 25, 2019 12:07 am

From the book under review, page 31: (See a downloadable copy in my June 3 post).
Individuality without moral restraints or just laws often has led to selfish excess; there are many such
instances in the history of our country. Yet the conservative prefers to try to bring about the reform of
“ruthless individualism” by operating upon the private conscience rather than by calling into operation
a police state. The only way to check selfishness, Aristotle says, is “to train the nobler sort of natures not
to desire more.” And the only real way to check envy is to remind the mass of men and women that
unusual talents have their rights, as well as ordinary talents. Irving Babbitt, a generation ago, expressed
the conservative’s view in this matter with a high dignity:

The remedy for such a failure of the man at the top to curb his desires does not lie, as the
agitator would have us believe, in inflaming the desires of the man at the bottom; nor again in
substituting for real justice some phantasmagoria of social justice. As a result of such a
substitution, one will presently be turning from the punishment of the individual offender to
an attack on the institution of property itself; and a war on capital will speedily degenerate, as it
always has in the past, into a war on thrift and industry in favor of laziness and incompetence,
and finally into schemes of confiscation that profess to be idealistic and are in fact subversion of
common honesty. Above all, social justice is likely to be unsound in its partial or total
suppression of competition. Without competition it is impossible that the ends of true justice
should be fulfilled—namely, that every man should receive according to his works. The
principle of competition, as Hesiod pointed out long ago, is built into the very roots of the
world; there is something in the nature of things that calls for a real victory and a real defeat.
Competition is necessary to rouse man from his native indolence; without it, life loses its zest
and savor. Only, as Hesiod goes on to say, there are two types of competition—the one that
leads to bloody war and the other that is the mother of enterprise and high achievement.
Babbitt is quoted from his Democracy and Leadership book of 1924.
May all seek, find and follow the Path of Bodhicitta.

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Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism

Post by Vasana » Wed Dec 25, 2019 8:56 am

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 12:07 am
From the book under review, page 31: (See a downloadable copy in my June 3 post).
Above all, social justice is likely to be unsound in its partial or total
suppression of competition. Without competition it is impossible that the ends of true justice
should be fulfilled—namely, that every man should receive according to his works. The
principle of competition, as Hesiod pointed out long ago, is built into the very roots of the
world; there is something in the nature of things that calls for a real victory and a real defeat.
Competition is necessary to rouse man from his native indolence; without it, life loses its zest
and savor. Only, as Hesiod goes on to say, there are two types of competition—the one that
leads to bloody war and the other that is the mother of enterprise and high achievement.
Babbitt is quoted from his Democracy and Leadership book of 1924.
I don't buy the 'competition is vital' myth. Sure it has driven innovation, but is not the only driving force of progress and given the state of the world today, competition has only driven immense wealth inequality, social deprivation and ecological degradation. Evolution teaches us that collaboration across scales and genuine altruism among humans is a greater driver of human flourishing and prosperity. Conservatives in practice tend to be in favour of the flourishing of the few,at expense of the many, despite what their theory says. And then the notion that each should receive in proportion to.their efforts is also a load of bunk considering both wealth and opportunity are more often inherited than earnt across the board.

'If wealth was the inevitable result of hard work and enterprise, every woman in Africa would be a millionaire - George monibot

Given that conservative supported neoliberal capitalism is neither sustainable, under the Sustainable development goals framework, nor safe, under the planetary boundaries framework*, the notion of any political ideology operating rationally while ignoring the incompatibilities of neoliberal capitalism and ' the safe operating space for planet earth' is really quite absurd. It's not just unsound ecologically, it's unsound economically and socially.
'We should do away with the absolutely specious notion that everybody has to earn a living. It is a fact today that one in ten thousand of us can make a technological breakthrough capable of supporting all the rest. The youth of today are absolutely right in recognizing this nonsense of earning a living. We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery because, according to Malthusian Darwinian theory he must justify his right to exist. So we have inspectors of inspectors and people making instruments for inspectors to inspect inspectors. The true business of people should be to go back to school and think about whatever it was they were thinking about before somebody came along and told them they had to earn a living.'
Buckminster Fuller



* https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-04738-z
ཨོཾ ་ མ ་ ཎི ་ པ ་ དྨེ ་ ཧཱུྃ ། འ ་ ཨ ་ ཧ ་ ཤ ་ ས ་ མ །
Om Mani Peme Hum ། 'A Ah Ha Sha Sa Ma
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Concise Guide to Conservatism

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:34 pm

Right after the Babbitt quote is this by Kirk:
Thus the conservative is dedicated to true individuality, the right and the duty of men and women
to be themselves; the conservative seeks enlightened competition, differences of rank and station and
wealth, life with variety and even with risk. But he does not seek a doctrinaire “Individualism” that
favors selfishness, private illicit ambition, and “devil take the hintermost” on principle. He does not seek
this any more than he seeks a stifling collectivism. He thinks that society ought to foster true
individuality, and that the proper checks upon a ruthless individualism are private conscience and good
constitutions, not constant and direct political surveillance of our economy and our private lives. The
conservative is not an ideologue; that is, he does not yearn for complete moral and political anarchy, or
for a total “welfare state” opposed to individual variety. He thinks that our old established American
society, in which private ambition and public order are reconciled and mutually checked, offers us the
general solution to the problem of the individual versus the state.

No society ever puts an end, once and for all, to the conflicting claims of ordered government and
private ambition. The best we can hope for is a society in which men and women recognize the general
principle that the superior natures are entitled to develop themselves, and that the average natures are
entitled to live in tranquility. There was a time, in the history of our country, when it seemed that
ruthless individualism might overthrow this principle. But that time is gone by; and at present, [1957]
the danger is rather that the state may repress true individuality in the name of a leveling “social justice.”
Nowadays, therefore, the prudent conservative endeavors to redress the balance by supporting, with all
the strength at his command, the rights of the individual against the arrogant demands of the mass state.
May all seek, find and follow the Path of Bodhicitta.

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