Abandoning past practice commitments

[dorje e gabbana]

Oh I get it now -- you really deeply understand Dzogchen teachings and Ati Guru Yoga much better than anyone here on Dharmawheel.

Malcom How old are you? 11 -12 or you are just a teenager?
This is a typical neurotic reaction of a very fragile guy without counter- arguments.

[dorje e gabbana]

directly asked him about a Sadhana I do, and my introduction and experience with my main Guru etc. ChNNR addressed my specific questions.

Anyway You did not answer my simple question
and you are making cirlcles around

I repeat it again, samdrup

Have you asked CNNR instead very directly if the samaya are kept even if you are not in the rigpa state and just sound A, using your mind and not abiding in the nautre of mind?

Come on. it is easy. Just Say honestly yes or not

[Malcolm]

Thanks for your condescending reply anyway.

I know, and I thought I was a condescending prick...I have been bested.

You didn't see that one coming, right?

Nope, right out of the goddamn blue sky.

[conebeckham]

Yo, fashionable Italian Designer Dorje...you don't get it, do you?

What is it with Dzokchen forums, such that everyone has to try to "Best" everyone with their extensive, wordy, knowledge? Ironic, on one level, and yet,....since everything's embraced by the natural state, perhaps just the display...

And why do you all need to make it personal?

CNNR says something. Malcolm has merely repeated it. It's honestly not that unique of a position, for Dzokchen teachers--hell, even for some Mahamudra teachers I know, they will tell you that daily practice of Guru Yoga fulfills all commitments! But, you know........if you have a close relationship with a teacher, that teacher may have a much better understanding of your own state, your own ability to maintain "Awareness," or "Rest in Rigpa," or "Ordinary Mind," or whatever you want to call the Natural State--in those cases, if your teacher feels you're just "faking it," he or she may prescribe other methods......

You see, it's not so much about reciting texts daily. It's about relationship with a teacher. Those of you with full faith and confidence in CNNR, follow his instructions. Those of you with full faith and confidence in another teacher, follow that teacher's instructions. Those of you who want to disregard your teacher's advice, and argue about conceptual systems, etc., should try to develop a relationship with a good teacher. In Dzokchen, and Mahamudra too, THAT is far more important than any conceptual understanding of systems of practice and samaya commitments, etc.

[Adamantine]

=
And why do you all need to make it personal?

.

I didn't think all of us did!

[Malcolm]

Those of you with full faith and confidence in CNNR, follow his instructions. Those of you with full faith and confidence in another teacher, follow that teacher's instructions.

Exactly.

[LunaRoja]

Hi!
A few years ago I prematurely attended some teachings and empowerments that were given with lifetime daily practice commitments. Afterwards I struggeled immensely with these practices for maybe a half year of so, but they made no sense to me, and I ended up doing them out of guilt, and fear of vajra hell. Then I gave them up alltogether. Now I only try to follow the teachings of ChNN, do Guru Yoga when I remember, and other DC practices when I have time and energy, but I still fear negative consequenses for abandoning past practice commitments.

In all fairness to Inge's original question she states she does Guru Yoga when she remembers. How often does she remember; once a day, once a week, once a month, every couple of years etc...? If one does not have a firm commitment to at least do Guru yoga once a day how is she keeping any of her commitments?

I'm not so sure I agree with this one size fits all styles approach. If 100 people go to the guru and ask a question the answer should be tailored to each of them. For the practitioner that understands guru yoga and has a daily practice and strong motivation then maybe Guru yoga of the white A is sufficient, but for another practitioner the advice should meet their level of understanding and practice. First advice should at least have a daily practice then go on from there.

[dorje e gabbana]

And why do you all need to make it personal?

It does not mean I am making it personal if I ask people:
Do you pay attention to the fact you really are in the rigpa state while doing GY and Sounding A, in order to undertand what you are realy doing with you samayas?

If someone feels offended by this way to understand what one is really doing with his/her Dzog chen practice, than it is may be another issue.

I am also sorry if my approach to dig into questions that other people considers just to be a dogma has offended someone, it was not intentionally.

For me is quite normal not using Integralism to approach not only dzogchen but everything in the life and my question was very simple even if someone was getting nervous

Let's take it easy. There are not bested people or winners and this is not a tournament. It is just a forum discussion about Dzog chen practice

[Stewart]

directly asked him about a Sadhana I do, and my introduction and experience with my main Guru etc. ChNNR addressed my specific questions.

Anyway You did not answer my simple question
and you are making cirlcles around

I repeat it again, samdrup

Have you asked CNNR instead very directly if the samaya are kept even if you are not in the rigpa state and just sound A, using your mind and not abiding in the nautre of mind?

Come on. it is easy. Just Say honestly yes or not

Hello,

ChNNR said as long as I try my best to integrate everything with the natural state, that is enough, whether or not I achieve this is between me and my masters...he also said It's not easy to do, but the important thing is I try to apply it through GY as much as possible....but ChNNR is not the only master to tell me this....in fact your the only one to say otherwise....

Your right, that was easy.

[Sönam]

Hi!
A few years ago I prematurely attended some teachings and empowerments that were given with lifetime daily practice commitments. Afterwards I struggeled immensely with these practices for maybe a half year of so, but they made no sense to me, and I ended up doing them out of guilt, and fear of vajra hell. Then I gave them up alltogether. Now I only try to follow the teachings of ChNN, do Guru Yoga when I remember, and other DC practices when I have time and energy, but I still fear negative consequenses for abandoning past practice commitments.

Inge, you ALREADY have broken for years your samayas, it seems for coherence "but they made no sense to me, and I ended up doing them out of guilt, and fear of vajra hell. Then I gave them up alltogether ... I still fear negative consequenses for abandoning past practice commitments.

So, Inge, please, do not fear it does not help, you have already broken your samayas, it's already done, try to do Guru Yoga more regulary, the morning when it comes to you and certainly at night before to sleep. The rest of the time do what you have to do. Do not limit your self with those guilty thoughts. Continue to follow the teaching, you are on a good way.

Sönam

[dorje e gabbana]

Oh Mr marigpa How I could survive without your prayers? Save it for your dog
What is your real contribution to this discussion in terms of contents, so far ? ZERO

take care

[purple rose]

PLEASE NOTE

Any further personal comments/attacks will result in posts being removed, warnings and/or suspensions being issued and may result in threads being locked.

Regards,

[conebeckham]

=
And why do you all need to make it personal?

.

I didn't think all of us did!

Sorry, you're right....not all of us did. And I did, with that last post. Apologies.

[conebeckham]

Dorje e gabbana-

In my opinion, a lot of people who "practice Dzokchen" may have had "introduction," but they didn't "get" it.
Same with Mahamudra, by the way.

For those that "got it," maintaining a daily practice--for example, Guru Yoga, the essential practice for Dzokchenpas (and Mahamudra folks, BTW)--still doesn't mean one can "rest in the natural state" unimpededly or "simply." I don't think I need to tell anyone this, but anyway...there it is, for anyone who cares. BUT-that practice is recommended as the "access point," or "access method," as it were....so, do your best!

And those that didn't "get it"-well, practicing one thing, esp. something as simple and yet profound as guru yoga-is, IMO, the best way to develop the potential to "get it." Especially if one practices with a teacher whose entire system rests on the Direct Introduction. So, Do your best!

Other, so-called Lower Methods may be stressed by those teachers who either don't endorse the idea of "direct introduction," or feel that a gradual approach is "safer" or more likely to create good causes. And, perhaps, they may be right--depends on the student, too. If your teacher, who you have faith and confidence in, gives you a 100 page sadhana to recite daily, well...do your best!

The other thing I want to put out there, is that whether one is half-heartedly "faking" Guru Yoga of the White A, or whatever, or ploughing one's way mechanically through one's daily Tantric Recitation Commitments, the key thing is faith in the efficacy of the method. That faith allows one to attempt to maintain awareness of the meaning, and what one is actually doing, instead of mere "rote" activity. And that takes me back to faith and confidence in the teacher--for, really, faith and confidence in the methods can only develop with application--but in order for one to apply the method, one needs to feel it's worth applying, and one's teacher is the root of Blessing in that regard.

So can one embrace all samaya in a single practice? I believe so. Can one break samaya by abandoning all one's previous recitations and engaging in a single practice? I also believe this to be so. It's depends on the attitude of the practitioner--and that, really, is what Samaya is about--the Mind. Not the "activity," really-not "doing the recitations."

[Blue Garuda]

Dorje e gabbana-

In my opinion, a lot of people who "practice Dzokchen" may have had "introduction," but they didn't "get" it.
Same with Mahamudra, by the way.

For those that "got it," maintaining a daily practice--for example, Guru Yoga, the essential practice for Dzokchenpas (and Mahamudra folks, BTW)--still doesn't mean one can "rest in the natural state" unimpededly or "simply." I don't think I need to tell anyone this, but anyway...there it is, for anyone who cares. BUT-that practice is recommended as the "access point," or "access method," as it were....so, do your best!

And those that didn't "get it"-well, practicing one thing, esp. something as simple and yet profound as guru yoga-is, IMO, the best way to develop the potential to "get it." Especially if one practices with a teacher whose entire system rests on the Direct Introduction. So, Do your best!

Other, so-called Lower Methods may be stressed by those teachers who either don't endorse the idea of "direct introduction," or feel that a gradual approach is "safer" or more likely to create good causes. And, perhaps, they may be right--depends on the student, too. If your teacher, who you have faith and confidence in, gives you a 100 page sadhana to recite daily, well...do your best!

The other thing I want to put out there, is that whether one is half-heartedly "faking" Guru Yoga of the White A, or whatever, or ploughing one's way mechanically through one's daily Tantric Recitation Commitments, the key thing is faith in the efficacy of the method. That faith allows one to attempt to maintain awareness of the meaning, and what one is actually doing, instead of mere "rote" activity. And that takes me back to faith and confidence in the teacher--for, really, faith and confidence in the methods can only develop with application--but in order for one to apply the method, one needs to feel it's worth applying, and one's teacher is the root of Blessing in that regard.

So can one embrace all samaya in a single practice? I believe so. Can one break samaya by abandoning all one's previous recitations and engaging in a single practice? I also believe this to be so. It's depends on the attitude of the practitioner--and that, really, is what Samaya is about--the Mind. Not the "activity," really-not "doing the recitations."

Excellent post.

Nothing to add or amend - it is perfect as it is!

[dorje e gabbana]

thanks you for your answer

In my opinion, a lot of people who "practice Dzokchen" may have had "introduction," but they didn't "get" it.
Same with Mahamudra, by the way.

We think the same way.

So can one embrace all samaya in a single practice? I believe so. Can one break samaya by abandoning all one's previous recitations and engaging in a single practice? I also believe this to be so. It's depends on the attitude of the practitioner--and that, really, is what Samaya is about--the Mind. Not the "activity," really-not "doing the recitations."

Absolutely
The goal of my late posts was recalling that various dozgchen master like HH Dudjom rimpoche, but not only, spoke about the big danger to fabricate a fake mental state we call them rigpa and with which we play for the rest of our life, deluding ourselves without realizing nothing before enter the bardo state, without asking tourselves questions about what we are really doing.
Now I agree that faith and goodwill to do your best is more than important, but I would also like to point out that in dzog chen unfortunateley those 2 things are not everything. So the danger to think to be a real dzogchen practitioners is very big when you are only a proud dzogchenist is very big, above all if you don't have any doubt about your practice.
And believe me, one thing is working one to one with a dzog chen master and another thing is to gain absolute confidence in your rigpa trough a webcast or a 500 people teaching. I was consider myself very lucky because I have done both the experiences.

So a bit of humility in try to discover where we really are with our real rigpa practice and understanding should not be seen as adding oil to the fire, but everybody should peridically check out how good is our rigpa practice, not taking nothing for granted.....as instead many people apparently love to do.
This is the very precious advice I save in my heart from a CNNR teaching of late 90's I have already posted in this 3d.
From time to time it would be beneficial checking it out, just not to behave as Dudjom Rimpoche complain with a big sense of humor:

So don’t go around claiming to be some great Dzogchen meditator when in fact you are nothing but a farting lout, stinking of alcohol and rank with lust

[Kelwin]

So many people breaking their pure view commitments in this thread.. it's ironic..

Still, I'd like to share an answer I once got from a Kagyu perspective:

Karmapa Thaye Dorje advised me to seek out some Dzogchen teachers, and I realized that my practice might change in the future. Therefore I asked if I could give back my previous practice commitments, if I would start doing something different. He strongly said 'No! You cannot give them back'. I think I had a silly look of surprise on my face that moment But then he said 'By doing another practice, you will keep your commitments' So I asked 'Ah, so by doing any other Guru Yoga the (..) practice will be included? 'Yes indeed', he replied.

[kalden yungdrung]

In my opinion, a lot of people who "practice Dzokchen" may have had "introduction," but they didn't "get" it.
Same with Mahamudra, by the way.

We think the same way.

So can one embrace all samaya in a single practice? I believe so. Can one break samaya by abandoning all one's previous recitations and engaging in a single practice? I also believe this to be so. It's depends on the attitude of the practitioner--and that, really, is what Samaya is about--the Mind. Not the "activity," really-not "doing the recitations."

Absolutely
The goal of my late post was recall that various dozgchen master like HH Dudjom rimpoche, but not only, spoke about the bis danger to fabricate a fake mental state we call them rigpa and with which we play for the rest of our life, deluding ourselves without realizing nothing before enter the bardo state.
Now I agree that faith and goodwill to do your best is more than important, but I also like to point our that in dozg chen unfortunateley is not everything and the danger to think to be a real dzogchen practitioners is very big when you are only a proud dzogchenist is very big.

This why a bit of humility in try to discover where we really are with our real rigpa practice and understanding should not be seen as adding oil to the fire, but everybody should peridicaaly check out how good is our rigpa practice, not taking nothing for granted.....as instead many people apparently love to do.
This is the very precious advice I save in my heart from a CNNR teaching of late 90's I have already posted in this 3d.
From time to time it would be beneficial checking it out, just not to behave as Dudjom Rimpoche complain with a big sense of humor:

So don’t go around claiming to be some great Dzogchen meditator when in fact you are nothing but a farting lout, stinking of alcohol and rank with lust

thank you for your answer

Tashi delek,

Very interesting post.

But want also to add the fact that there are other Samayas in Dzogchen.
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=8307" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I guess if one follows these Samayas then it is including all (other) Samayas.

So because the difference between Samayas there is good hope to succeed.

Also important is that with prostrations, broken Dzogchen Samayas are not "healed". But learning about Dzogchen basics that is a must, but as an aid / help, we have this forum.

Mutsog Marro
KY

[dorje e gabbana]

By the way it sounds strange hearing people claiming that CNNR just teaches Dzog chen as an indipendent vehicle.

In The Santi maha sanga training you must:

complete Ngondro
Practising tza sum, that is 3 roots: guru, deva e dakini mantra accumulating at list one bum for each one

So he asks people seriously committed in getting semde, londe, mennagde teachings, to practice before the standard tantric set of practice required by all Nyma masters.

And it is very very good, and also nornal in a serious way to teach dzogchen, even if for some people used to get only external teaching form CNNR it seems very strange

[Malcolm]

Hi!
A few years ago I prematurely attended some teachings and empowerments that were given with lifetime daily practice commitments. Afterwards I struggeled immensely with these practices for maybe a half year of so, but they made no sense to me, and I ended up doing them out of guilt, and fear of vajra hell. Then I gave them up alltogether. Now I only try to follow the teachings of ChNN, do Guru Yoga when I remember, and other DC practices when I have time and energy, but I still fear negative consequenses for abandoning past practice commitments.

In all fairness to Inge's original question she states she does Guru Yoga when she remembers. How often does she remember; once a day, once a week, once a month, every couple of years etc...?

And what business is it of yours? She is asking those of us who are in the DC what our teacher thinks about such things. So we explained it, very clearly.

All you people will wind up doing -- assuming she is paying the slightest attention to you (which she ought not) -- is enhancing her anxiety. This is not useful.