kirtu wrote: Malcolm wrote:
kirtu wrote:So that's what I base my assertion on. While I haven't spoken to them personally I have nonetheless heard and read their words.
Uh huh. Buddha also taught eternalism for some folks.
Yes, that's true. But that was also upaya in order to get them to not fall into nihilism. He also taught some people to not abandon Vedic ceremonies from their cultural or familial lineages. He accepted at least one person as a student who was following Jain teachings and made him promise to not abandon those teachings. We could go on and on (Shakyamuni followed Jain teachings or Jain-like teachings from previous lifetimes for example). And as you noted there have been forms of Buddhism that seemed to have eternalist elements. But not surviving orthodox schools (although people would still throw that accusation at the Jonang).
MY REPLY:MAHAPARINIRVANA SUTRA
Chapter 12:On the nature of the Tathagata
One who takes refuge in the Buddha is a true upasaka. He no longer takes refuge in all the other gods. One who takes refuge in Dharma cuts himself away from harming others. One who takes refuge In the holy Sangha does not take refuge in other religions. Thus taking refuge in the Three Treasures,one attains fearlessness."
We as Buddhists are not supposed to belong to other religions.
your joking right?? no surviving orthodox schools that hold eternalist elements,you do realise that MAHAYANA schools are centered around the Lotus sutra and Mahaparinirvana sutra dont you???the Lotus sutra was the sutra that proclaimed the Mahayana and the eternal Buddha who never dies (chap 16) it also speaks of all of us atttaining enlightenement in the future,while it doesnt use he word Tathagatagarbha it discribs it in perfect meaning.ALL of east asian schools are centered around the Tathagatagarbha teachings only 2% of all of Buddhism holds the Madhyamaka view of tibetan buddhism,as a famous zen master said end the self gain the TRUE SELF.
Chan was founded on Lankavatara sutra its Tathagatagarbha,teintai founded on Lotus sutra and incorperated the Nirvana school,3 pureland sutras contains the eternal living Buddha.
The Lotus sutra states that the views of the 2nd turning were provisional(Madyamaka)(not finished truth or the whoile truth) but =upaya
the Tathagatagarbha was the complete truth or finished truth which is why Mahaparinirvana sutra and Lotus sutra were the foundation for all of Mahayana Buddhism in asia.also the Nirvana sutra states that tathagatagarbha is not upaya.
the Mahaparinirvana sutra proclaims the eternal life of the Buddha the true self,and proclaims the end of the false self(nonself) or tainted individual ego,Tathagatagarbha is enlightenment with the dirt on it(YOU)
Nirvana sutra teaches the Buddha never dies
eternalism was always the view of YOU or a tainted self always existing
TRUE SELF is the 4th noble truth which is the only truth that is PERMANENT unless you say an Buddha retrogresses and is not fixed??meaning he can fall and have greed,anger,ignorance??http://karunadharmakayabuddhism.org/Page_10.html
do a search on google for it.
this is our sanghas website tell us what you think about it.
please send me a personal message about the sangha info,not here for (TOS) reasons
were a mish mash of laity veitnamese,chinese,japanese,and american followers we center around loving kindness/Tathagatagarbha/and the Pureland teachings for laity.
Peace and Love