RuShi ?

User avatar
Aemilius
Posts: 2001
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am

Re: RuShi ?

Post by Aemilius » Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:24 pm

heart wrote:
Aemilius wrote:Chögyam Trungpa had this great idea of "Dharma without credentials", but the fact is that Dharma is mostly or only about credentials. What we can say is that teaching and communication of Dharma take place, informally and with all elaborate formalities. Once it has happened, i.e. you have understood something, then it is very unlikely that you will ever acknowledge how and from whom you heard it. You will go to enormous lengths to create the image that you have heard it from some real credential source, some real credential authority. This is how the lineages come into being. The images of lineages do exist, I think, they have some use, they are not useless. Truth is beyond comprehension.
Then there are the evolutionary tendencies, which means that a particular ethnic population creates the lineages. This is to say that all or most teachings are put into the names of people of that particular ethnic lineage, or into the names of powerfull families within it. Population is an ethnic lineage. Dharma has another purpose than promoting a particular human population or a particular family-lineage, which is why the real Dharma-lineage loses to the evolutionary forces, and it is then replaced by a hereditary lineage.
I do believe in lineages actually and my Guru has several lineages to uphold and one of them is his family lineage. If you read "Blazing Splendor" you will find out a lot about that particular lineage and how the transmission is done. I also found Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoches "Brilliant Moon" very touching. In my opinion there is definitely a transmission that is reflected by the official lineage and it is of great value. There might be people outside Tibet becoming lineage-holders in time, I heard there are a few already, but it is none of my business. I am just a simple practitioner. If only Tibetans can keep the lineage it is ok as long as it is genuine.

/magnus

What is "keeping the lineage "? What do you say when you say it ? To me it sounds like some authoritarian & army-like system. In a Sravakayana sutra Shakyamuni says that he is not the leader of the Sangha, Sangha consists of free individuals, who teach freely those whom they think are receptive.

If we take for example the Nyungne, that is being done, and has been done, in Europe in many countries, like Hungary, Sweden, France, Germany, Danmark, etc... and there are several persons with vast experience in it. Do you call it freedom, if some hitherto unkonwn person is then brought to Europe, -what ever his ethnic origin may happpen to be-, and who is then declared to be the Lineage-holder of Nyungne!! And because you are a tantrika you will believe anything and everything that is told to you ????
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."
(Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1.)

narraboth
Posts: 424
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:18 pm

Re: RuShi ?

Post by narraboth » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:06 pm

Aemilius wrote: What is "keeping the lineage "? What do you say when you say it ? To me it sounds like some authoritarian & army-like system. In a Sravakayana sutra Shakyamuni says that he is not the leader of the Sangha, Sangha consists of free individuals, who teach freely those whom they think are receptive.
I think to keep a lineage is to know most knowledge of a lineage, to practice it constantly, have gained results from it and to be able to teach others in a profound and pure way.

Sangha can teach freely, but people can't teach what they don't really know. (that's the problem nowadays isn't it? people claim that they know this and that when they do not) There is no army-like power in buddhism, but knowledge itself is power. I am sure in early sangha, common monks naturally bowed to and requested teaching from Arhats, like how they did to Buddha.

Nyung-nye is widely spreaded, so there should be many 'lineage-holders' of it. However for totally 34 volumes of chokling tersa, if there is one in the world who understand it and can do it the best, what's wrong to call him a lineage holder?

Josef
Posts: 1686
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: RuShi ?

Post by Josef » Mon Jun 14, 2010 4:17 pm

The importance of authentic teachers goes all the way back to the Buddha himself and the Pali Nikaya's. The whole "be a light unto yourself" nonsense is way over used and misinterpreted.

The Alagaddupama Sutta discusses the importance of the teacher and his credentials by illustrating the foolishness of those who are unqualified attempting to teach.
Lineage and authenticity is absolutely essential in all nine yana's.
Last edited by Josef on Mon Jun 14, 2010 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

User avatar
heart
Posts: 3994
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: RuShi ?

Post by heart » Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:37 pm

Aemilius wrote: What is "keeping the lineage "? What do you say when you say it ? To me it sounds like some authoritarian & army-like system. In a Sravakayana sutra Shakyamuni says that he is not the leader of the Sangha, Sangha consists of free individuals, who teach freely those whom they think are receptive.

If we take for example the Nyungne, that is being done, and has been done, in Europe in many countries, like Hungary, Sweden, France, Germany, Danmark, etc... and there are several persons with vast experience in it. Do you call it freedom, if some hitherto unkonwn person is then brought to Europe, -what ever his ethnic origin may happpen to be-, and who is then declared to be the Lineage-holder of Nyungne!! And because you are a tantrika you will believe anything and everything that is told to you ????
Keeping the lineage in Vajrayana means to first have the realization and then by your teacher being forced to expound the teachings through empowerment's, commentaries and instructions . If you don't have realization you can't be a lineage holder in Vajrayana. The reason for this is that during the empowerment ritual the Buddha nature should be introduced to the students. If you haven't realized it you can't introduce it. Having a lot of experience in Nyungye is of course wonderful but it doesn't make you a qualified teacher.
I know that my own teachers and in particular my root-Guru do have the quality to be able to make you recognize the natural state and this is the basis for my devotion. I am not exactly ashamed about that devotion.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

muni
Posts: 4289
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: RuShi ?

Post by muni » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:24 pm

heart wrote:

I am not exactly ashamed about that devotion.

/magnus
:bow: Great power.
Buddha said all is empty like my brain.
Let’s make a selfie!

User avatar
Luke
Posts: 2000
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:04 pm
Location: Europe

Re: RuShi ?

Post by Luke » Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:36 pm

Aemilius wrote: What is "keeping the lineage "? What do you say when you say it ? To me it sounds like some authoritarian & army-like system.
Would you want a doctor operating on you who didn't know very much about medicine and who just played a doctor on TV? Of course not, and this is why doctors have to pass many exams to become certified.

In Buddhism, it's not quite so simple, because becoming a lineage holder is based upon having enough knowledge of the vajrayana traditition you have been taught to gain your lama's approval. This may seem subjective because it's not just based on some exam, but great masters can clearly see who has real attainment and who is faking.

Of course, as in any human endeavor, there are sometimes fakes and troublemakes, but usually they get weeded out quickly by the Vajrayana community.

Having lineage holders might seem unfair to a westerner because the vast majority of lineage holders are still Tibetan. But this doesn't imply that the system is wrong or unfair (the religion does come from their culture, after all). This just highlights the need for more Buddhist institutions in the west where interested westerners can learn the complete path of the Vajrayana teachings in English (and in other western languages) at a very high level of quality. May there be a Nalanda University in every country of the world!

User avatar
catmoon
Former staff member
Posts: 3283
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:20 am
Location: British Columbia

Re: RuShi ?

Post by catmoon » Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:18 pm

Of course there is a problem with the lineage system that is obvious to anyone outside of Buddhism. If a major error in practice is made, it will be propagated through the lineage system with no hope of correction. Of course the Buddhist thinks the system is foolproof. Catholics think the Pope is foolproof too.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.

Pema Rigdzin
Posts: 1042
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:19 am
Location: Southern Oregon

Re: RuShi ?

Post by Pema Rigdzin » Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:39 pm

catmoon wrote:Of course there is a problem with the lineage system that is obvious to anyone outside of Buddhism. If a major error in practice is made, it will be propagated through the lineage system with no hope of correction. Of course the Buddhist thinks the system is foolproof. Catholics think the Pope is foolproof too.
Well, such Buddhists need only look at the Buddha's own teachings to see that the scriptural Dharma is impermanent. It's not for no reason that 996 other buddhas are supposed to appear in this universe. But, I don't personally think there are quite yet so few masters with realization, or genuine tulkus undergoing proper training, that charlatans predominate... So I don't think the days are nearly upon us when the danger of "major errors in practice being propagated through the lineage system with no hope of correction" is very real. Not for sufficiently educated people following very widely known and esteemed lamas.

User avatar
Guru Dragpo
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 8:28 am

Re: RuShi ?

Post by Guru Dragpo » Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:17 pm

Hello,
Is there a difference between Corde Rushen in Nmcho and Yeshe Lama?

tingdzin
Posts: 909
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:19 am

Re: RuShi ?

Post by tingdzin » Sun Aug 16, 2015 7:00 am

Please people, stop posting about practices which are not to be talked about publicly. This is mentioned in the posting guidelines, or at least it used to be. If you feel you must have information about these practices that people here can provide, post in the Buddhist Tantra section instead of putting out back-and-forth gossip. That way everybody is happy and you don't break samaya.

User avatar
kalden yungdrung
Posts: 2322
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm

Re: RuShi ?

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sun Aug 16, 2015 7:42 am

tingdzin wrote:Please people, stop posting about practices which are not to be talked about publicly. This is mentioned in the posting guidelines, or at least it used to be. If you feel you must have information about these practices that people here can provide, post in the Buddhist Tantra section instead of putting out back-and-forth gossip. That way everybody is happy and you don't break samaya.

Tashi delek T,

Yes, Mind is a very secret thing and we are walking around the whole day with this so called "secret" Mind.
We divide this Mind in outer, inner, secret and innermost secret parts, whereas this Mind is a one man show.
We cannot speak about our practice on a forum whereas we are practitioners? Well that is a little one sided, would i say so.
It is never said so that Dzogchenpas cannot exchange their experiences. It is seen by some Masters as useful if Dzogchenpas could discuss everything they meet on their Path to other Dzogchenpas.

Here we sure cannot make transgressions regarding our Samayas.

So like said before, a sub-forum would fit here better than this "alternative" Dharma Talk forum.

Yes there is a possibility to discuss practice from person to person so why don' t throw it into the group as a collective information?

Of course the members of this group should be controlled about their Dzogchen introduction and followed teachings etc.
Then discussing practice would be sure possible, i guess so.

Then there are here aboard sure persons who could lead such a Forum as moderator.

JLA has so his forum where they discuss all Dzogchen topics there are, so no limitations on his forum, for the persons he knows.
Well i guess that JLA knows what he is doing.

Then rises the question, why is this here on DW, NOT possible e.g. to discuss practice etc on a special sub-forum?
By the way i saw this on many forums that they have a special "closed" Tantra forum to discuss the visualisations, channels, winds etc.

- Not violating Samayas that is very quick said, but an alternative that seems to be more difficult here aboard.


KY
The best meditation is no meditation

tingdzin
Posts: 909
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:19 am

Re: RuShi ?

Post by tingdzin » Sun Aug 16, 2015 7:51 am

Not difficult at all. Just don't talk so much. Of course, as I said, you are free to do as you please. Beginners who read this stuff should realize that the posters' experiences are mostly delusion, however.

amanitamusc
Posts: 650
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:32 am

Re: RuShi ?

Post by amanitamusc » Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:57 am

Is Kieth Dowman a lineage holder?i bet he makes good mo mo's.

amanitamusc
Posts: 650
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:32 am

Re: RuShi ?

Post by amanitamusc » Sun Aug 16, 2015 7:59 pm

Kieth Dowman has a pet gerbil called rushi, butt that's a whole other story. :oops: :offtopic:

MalaBeads
Posts: 803
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:47 am

Re: RuShi ?

Post by MalaBeads » Sun Aug 16, 2015 8:27 pm

[quote="heart"]

Keeping the lineage in Vajrayana means to first have the realization and then by your teacher being forced to expound the teachings through empowerment's, commentaries and instructions .

/magnus[/quote/]

Oh dear magnus. A true teacher would never force a student to do anything.

I remember specifically being on retreat with Chnn in 1986 and he specfically teaching his students to not force themselves to do anything. With utmost respect, I disagree with this.
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 24973
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: RuShi ?

Post by Malcolm » Sun Aug 16, 2015 8:37 pm

MalaBeads wrote:
heart wrote:
Keeping the lineage in Vajrayana means to first have the realization and then by your teacher being forced to expound the teachings through empowerment's, commentaries and instructions .

/magnus[/quote/]

Oh dear magnus. A true teacher would never force a student to do anything.

I remember specifically being on retreat with Chnn in 1986 and he specfically teaching his students to not force themselves to do anything. With utmost respect, I disagree with this.

He is talking about the teacher being forced, not the students.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Relax, don’t worry about all the problems of samsara. Everything is relative. But try to be present.


— Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

MalaBeads
Posts: 803
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:47 am

Re: RuShi ?

Post by MalaBeads » Mon Aug 17, 2015 6:36 am

Malcolm wrote:
MalaBeads wrote:
heart wrote:
Keeping the lineage in Vajrayana means to first have the realization and then by your teacher being forced to expound the teachings through empowerment's, commentaries and instructions .

/magnus[/quote/]

Oh dear magnus. A true teacher would never force a student to do anything.

I remember specifically being on retreat with Chnn in 1986 and he specfically teaching his students to not force themselves to do anything. With utmost respect, I disagree with this.

He is talking about the teacher being forced, not the students.
The teacher is forced? By whom? This makes no sense to me.
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.

User avatar
Guru Dragpo
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri May 08, 2015 8:28 am

Re: RuShi ?

Post by Guru Dragpo » Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:45 pm

Asked only you are different! They knew someone. :namaste:

User avatar
heart
Posts: 3994
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: RuShi ?

Post by heart » Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:56 am

MalaBeads wrote:
heart wrote:
Keeping the lineage in Vajrayana means to first have the realization and then by your teacher being forced to expound the teachings through empowerment's, commentaries and instructions .

/magnus
Oh dear magnus. A true teacher would never force a student to do anything.

I remember specifically being on retreat with Chnn in 1986 and he specfically teaching his students to not force themselves to do anything. With utmost respect, I disagree with this.
Of course he/she would, if they are close enough. Remember Marpa and Milarepa for example, there are many other examples. Anyway, it isn't unusual that very qualified disciples are forced by their master to start teach. Understanding the full responsibility that a master have will make a qualified disciple try to avoid taking this step. Remember Malcolm talking about that Jim Valby would be terrified by the idea to be seen as a Guru. Try to imagine yourself stepping into ChNNR shoes.

Not forcing the student to practice is something else, it is a kind of strategy.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

MalaBeads
Posts: 803
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:47 am

Re: RuShi ?

Post by MalaBeads » Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:57 pm

Well, CHNN would never force Jim Valby (or anyone for that matter) to do anything so it is a moot point. And if Jim would allow himself to be forced, well, then I have to question his qualifications. Seriously.

It is, however, interesting that you characterize "lineage" as a situation of force, ie "keeping the lineage in vajrayana means to first have the realization and then by your teacher being forced to expound the teachings through empowerment's, commentaries and instructions ."
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: amanitamusc, Bing [Bot], climb-up, Lukeinaz, practitioner, Temicco and 46 guests