Dzochenpa Census

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
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heart
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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Post by heart » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:19 pm

Jnana wrote:
Mr. G wrote:Jnana, what views do you think differ from the Dzogchen tantras?
For what it's worth, I generally either agree with much of what Malcolm has to say on dzogchen or have no opinion on it one way or another. But to assert that he is "speaking from the point of view of the Dzogchen tantras and this is the caveat" implies that his opinions are more valid and authoritative than those of dzogchen teachers who present dzogchen within the terma framework of ngöndro, three root practices, and so on. I don't see any good reason to accept his opinions as more valid than those of others, and it seems to me that many of the tangents that have been argued at length on the Dzogchen sub-forum lately are hypotheticals with little or no substance.
Jnana, what do you mean exactly with "that many of the tangents that have been argued at length on the Dzogchen sub-forum lately are hypotheticals with little or no substance" ?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Post by dharmagoat » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:24 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Example:
If you say: "In Dzogchen view we consider the two truths to actually be one."
I would reply: "That's interesting, do you mind explaining exactly how Dzogchenpas...?"

BUT

If you say: "The Buddhist view of the two truths is irelevant and of no value, because in Dzogchen we consider the two truths to actually be one."
I would reply: "*^%^$%#$%$&^&*^* you and your Dzogchen view buddy, who are you to judge..."

Can you see the difference?
Greg, it might be naïve of me to point out the obvious, but I see a third possibility:
Example:
If you say: "The Buddhist view of the two truths is irelevant and of no value, because in Dzogchen we consider the two truths to actually be one."
I would reply: "That's interesting, do you mind explaining exactly how Dzogchenpas...?"
Or could this be considered copping out?
Last edited by dharmagoat on Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Post by Jnana » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:32 pm

heart wrote:Jnana, what do you mean exactly with "that many of the tangents that have been argued at length on the Dzogchen sub-forum lately are hypotheticals with little or no substance" ?
Well, for example, the tangent about whether or not there can be a Dzogchen lineage outside of Buddhism or Bön....

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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Post by heart » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:48 pm

Jnana wrote:
heart wrote:Jnana, what do you mean exactly with "that many of the tangents that have been argued at length on the Dzogchen sub-forum lately are hypotheticals with little or no substance" ?
Well, for example, the tangent about whether or not there can be a Dzogchen lineage outside of Buddhism or Bön....
Yes, I agree completely, I regret given that idea anything but a "good luck with that!".

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Post by Andrew108 » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:12 pm

Jnana wrote: ....But to assert that he is "speaking from the point of view of the Dzogchen tantras and this is the caveat" implies that his opinions are more valid and authoritative than those of dzogchen teachers who present dzogchen within the terma framework of ngöndro, three root practices, and so on. I don't see any good reason to accept his opinions as more valid than those of others....
Wow is that what I implied? How interesting.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Post by Jnana » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:14 am

Andrew108 wrote:Wow is that what I implied? How interesting.
It wasn't my intention to put words in your mouth Andrew :smile: but given the recent controversies on the Dzogchen sub-forum it's a reasonable inference to draw.

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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Post by Andrew108 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:42 am

No problem Jnana. I'm glad you are posting here.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Post by muni » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:47 am

An awakened nature-master and a bit a experienced understanding of misguiding ego and profound wish to be freed of the suffering-creating-fool (ego's body-mind) helps, this is outed in deep devotion to egoless compassionate master and so deep devotion in nondual unlimited nature. Our nature 'arising' from itself is through faith/devotion.

Just to say like you learned ones know very well, our nature is not merely in books/pechas but it is possible to learn Uche in order to help translations.
Also a master can in his guidance point to a particullar text the student can read.
Buddha said all is empty like my brain.
Let’s make a selfie!

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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Post by Andrew108 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:01 pm

heart wrote:
Andrew108 wrote: Hi Magnus,
If possible try to get hold of the Valby translations. Really wonderful.
I have the first volume but I find it difficult to read.

/magnus
Hi Magnus,
If you read p110 to page 113 of Vol 1 then you will be amazed at the simplicity and beauty of the text. It's may be the key passage.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Post by heart » Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:01 pm

Andrew108 wrote:
heart wrote:
Andrew108 wrote: Hi Magnus,
If possible try to get hold of the Valby translations. Really wonderful.
I have the first volume but I find it difficult to read.

/magnus
Hi Magnus,
If you read p110 to page 113 of Vol 1 then you will be amazed at the simplicity and beauty of the text. It's may be the key passage.
I give it a try :smile:

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:30 pm

dharmagoat wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:Example:
If you say: "In Dzogchen view we consider the two truths to actually be one."
I would reply: "That's interesting, do you mind explaining exactly how Dzogchenpas...?"

BUT

If you say: "The Buddhist view of the two truths is irelevant and of no value, because in Dzogchen we consider the two truths to actually be one."
I would reply: "*^%^$%#$%$&^&*^* you and your Dzogchen view buddy, who are you to judge..."

Can you see the difference?
Greg, it might be naïve of me to point out the obvious, but I see a third possibility:
Example:
If you say: "The Buddhist view of the two truths is irelevant and of no value, because in Dzogchen we consider the two truths to actually be one."
I would reply: "That's interesting, do you mind explaining exactly how Dzogchenpas...?"
Or could this be considered copping out?
What about the fourth option:
If you say: "In Dzogchen view we consider the two truths to actually be one."
I would reply: "*^%^$%#$%$&^&*^* you and your Dzogchen view buddy, who are you to judge..."

Actually we can keep playing this game ad nauseum, but then we would lose sight of the point I was trying to make: MUTUAL respect. And let us not forget the fact that Dharma Wheel is a Buddhist forum...

What exactly do you mean by "copping out"? I know what the term means but what exactly are you asking/proposing to me?
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Post by heart » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:23 pm

Andrew108 wrote:
heart wrote:
Andrew108 wrote: Hi Magnus,
If possible try to get hold of the Valby translations. Really wonderful.
I have the first volume but I find it difficult to read.

/magnus
Hi Magnus,
If you read p110 to page 113 of Vol 1 then you will be amazed at the simplicity and beauty of the text. It's may be the key passage.
Hmm, that passage have the exact same meaning as the quote in my signature. :smile:

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Post by dharmagoat » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:11 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:What exactly do you mean by "copping out"? I know what the term means but what exactly are you asking/proposing to me?
It is a genuine enquiry as to why you would automatically reject criticism of buddhism and condemn the critic. Is it necessary to defend the dharma so absolutely? I ask because I value your point of view and I am interested to hear your explanation as to why such a response is required.
gregkavarnos wrote:What about the fourth option:
If you say: "In Dzogchen view we consider the two truths to actually be one."
I would reply: "*^%^$%#$%$&^&*^* you and your Dzogchen view buddy, who are you to judge..."
Er, I thought I had better not mention this one.

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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:50 pm

dharmagoat wrote:It is a genuine enquiry as to why you would automatically reject criticism of buddhism and condemn the critic. Is it necessary to defend the dharma so absolutely?
I don't automatically reject criticism of Buddhism. I think many times you will see me criticising aspects of Buddhism. The Dharma on the other hand does not need defending. Does the sun need to be defended from clouds? The ocean defended from waves? What I object to is people attacking one -ism and validating their attack based on the perceived superiority of another -ism. Everybody always considers their -ism superior to the -ism of the other. But to convince me people have to come up with something a lot better than "my -ism is bigger than your -ism". Anybody that resorts to this sort of logic merely betrays their lack of penetration into realising the view. (yes, of course that goes for me as well, I am under no delusion about my capactities).

Malcolm tried to express this realisation, but unfortunately his expression generated more dualism rather than reduced it. Why? Did the medium fail him? I mean the interent is very two dimensional, it makes communication very difficult. Not exactly the best medium for expressing the subtlety and nuance of realisation. Are people (on both sides of the fence) too entrenched in their dualism to understand what he was trying to say? Maybe his realisation was not as deep and stable as he thought it was? etc... I am sure it is a combination of all these and other factors that lead us to where we are now. That is why I am still defending Buddhism as a viable means to realisation of ones true nature, because, for all its flaws, it still is. The diamond is still buried there in the muck. For those that are willing to dig the rewards for their effort will materialise.
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Post by Tilopa » Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:29 pm

Nicely put GK. :twothumbsup:

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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Post by Andrew108 » Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:30 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Maybe his realisation was not as deep and stable as he thought it was? etc... I am sure it is a combination of all these and other factors that lead us to where we are now. That is why I am still defending Buddhism as a viable means to realisation of ones true nature, because, for all its flaws, it still is.
You question a persons realization. You insist that realization is possible. You don't know when it will come to you. A lot of practitioners are in this bind.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:04 pm

Andrew108 wrote:You question a persons realization.
Did you notice the question mark at the end of my sentence? Anyway I made it quite clear that I was questioning the quality of the realisation, not the realisation per se. I have no doubt that Malcolm experienced something that may be called realisation.
You insist that realization is possible.
The Buddha insists that it is possible. Countless practitioners have shown that it is possible. Who am I to question them? Actually, it comes down to simple trust that the Buddha was not bull sh*t*ng me
You don't know when it will come to you. A lot of practitioners are in this bind.
You can say that again!
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Post by Simon E. » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:46 pm

A great wave breaks down the sea wall , the lagoon flows into the ocean.
Worried folk, after the shock has passed, repair the wall again, but the lagoon has gone...
"Any major dude with half a heart
Will surely tell you my friend,
Any minor world that breaks apart
Can fall together again.
Any major dude will tell you."

Steely Dan.

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Grigoris
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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:52 pm

Simon E. wrote:A great wave breaks down the sea wall , the lagoon flows into the ocean.
Worried folk, after the shock has passed, repair the wall again, but the lagoon has gone...
Only until the next rainy season!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Dzochenpa Census

Post by Simon E. » Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:02 pm

That particular body of water will not be back as a discrete entity I suspect.
"Any major dude with half a heart
Will surely tell you my friend,
Any minor world that breaks apart
Can fall together again.
Any major dude will tell you."

Steely Dan.

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