Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

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CapNCrunch
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Post by CapNCrunch » Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:52 pm

Dzogchen belongs to the teaching taking the result as the path
I just understood this statement to mean that the result (the fruit) is the path in Dzogchen - in the sense that it is often said that the state of guru yoga or "enlightenment" is the base, the path and the fruit of Dzogchen. Ergo, the result (the fruit of the practice) is also the path.

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heart
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Post by heart » Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:03 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
It is called Vajrayana. "Dzogchen is a part of Vajrayana" ChNNR

Edit: I understand that this is a also a name for the Lamdre teachings (after some google) I of course don't mean that Dzogchen is a part of Lamdre.

/magnus
One does not take the path as the result in Dzogchen. For example, Vajrayāna is nominally part of Mahāyāna, nevertheless, Vajrayāna is not a causal vehicle. Vajrayāna in general is the result vehicle. Likewise, Dzogchen is nominally part of the both Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna but it is the vehicle beyond cause and result.

Hence my negation of your statement.
Ok, I will not argue with that. The point I was trying to make to Andrew108 was that there definitely is a path and also a fruition in Dzogchen even if it is beyond cause and result.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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heart
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Post by heart » Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:05 pm

CapNCrunch wrote:
Dzogchen belongs to the teaching taking the result as the path
I just understood this statement to mean that the result (the fruit) is the path in Dzogchen - in the sense that it is often said that the state of guru yoga or "enlightenment" is the base, the path and the fruit of Dzogchen. Ergo, the result (the fruit of the practice) is also the path.
Yes, that was what I was trying to say.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Malcolm
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:18 pm

CapNCrunch wrote:
Dzogchen belongs to the teaching taking the result as the path
I just understood this statement to mean that the result (the fruit) is the path in Dzogchen - in the sense that it is often said that the state of guru yoga or "enlightenment" is the base, the path and the fruit of Dzogchen. Ergo, the result (the fruit of the practice) is also the path.

No, to take the result as the path means, for example, to meditate on oneself as a buddha, for example, Guru Dragphur, which is the method of Upa, Yoga, Mahayoga and Anuyoga.

One is not a buddha, but one takes the result as one's path.

M
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CapNCrunch
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Post by CapNCrunch » Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:25 pm

Thanks for clarifying - I wondered if the term had some special semantic field and meaning - which is why it's so hard for me to understand anything not understanding Tibetan and the terms specific to each vehicle.

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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Post by Andrew108 » Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:38 pm

heart wrote:
Andrew108 wrote:
heart wrote:
Dzogchen belongs to the teaching taking the result as the path. There is certainly a path, both in Trechö and Tögal but as the view, the natural state, can't improve or change in any way Dzogchen is often referred to as a non-gradual path. The view is non-gradual but there is certainly a path getting used to that view, resting longer and longer in the natural state. In Tögal there is the four visions, which is the path how the visions develop under normal circumstances. This is happening by getting used to and fully realizing. or integrating, inseparable kadag and lhundrup.

/magnus
Hi Magnus,
It's really not like this. If you want I could explain more.
What are your qualifications as a Dzogchen teacher? :smile: I didn't make this up you know.

/magnus
Hi Magnus,
Yes you are right and I don't have any qualifications as a Dzogchen teacher. It's better to follow what you know.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Post by heart » Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:40 pm

Malcolm wrote:
CapNCrunch wrote:
Dzogchen belongs to the teaching taking the result as the path
I just understood this statement to mean that the result (the fruit) is the path in Dzogchen - in the sense that it is often said that the state of guru yoga or "enlightenment" is the base, the path and the fruit of Dzogchen. Ergo, the result (the fruit of the practice) is also the path.

No, to take the result as the path means, for example, to meditate on oneself as a buddha, for example, Guru Dragphur, which is the method of Upa, Yoga, Mahayoga and Anuyoga.

One is not a buddha, but one takes the result as one's path.

M
That is not how my Guru explains it, he says that taking the result as the path means to take the natural state as the path since there is no other Buddha.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Malcolm
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:05 pm

heart wrote:
That is not how my Guru explains it, he says that taking the result as the path means to take the natural state as the path since there is no other Buddha.

/magnus
Yidam is a symbol of natural state.

In general, however this language belongs to the vehicles of cause and result.There are specific passages in Dzogchen tantras which reject this language.

Taking the three kāyas into the path is different than taking the result as the path.
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Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Post by heart » Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
That is not how my Guru explains it, he says that taking the result as the path means to take the natural state as the path since there is no other Buddha.

/magnus
Yidam is a symbol of natural state.

In general, however this language belongs to the vehicles of cause and result.There are specific passages in Dzogchen tantras which reject this language.

Taking the three kāyas into the path is different than taking the result as the path.
I will not argue with you, anyway I don't see the point since everything depends on you recognizing the natural state or not.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Post by heart » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:25 am

Andrew108 wrote: Hi Magnus,
Yes you are right and I don't have any qualifications as a Dzogchen teacher. It's better to follow what you know.
Hi Andrew108,

As long as we have an open discussion I don't mind hearing your opinions. If you listened to ChNNR webcast yesterday he made exactly the same point as I did above, to the best of my understanding.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Post by Andrew108 » Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:13 am

heart wrote:
Andrew108 wrote: Hi Magnus,
Yes you are right and I don't have any qualifications as a Dzogchen teacher. It's better to follow what you know.
Hi Andrew108,

As long as we have an open discussion I don't mind hearing your opinions. If you listened to ChNNR webcast yesterday he made exactly the same point as I did above, to the best of my understanding.

/magnus
Well then you must be right. Thanks
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Post by Mariusz » Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:48 am

Malcolm wrote:For all interested people:

ChNN is giving a wonderful teaching on tögal. He even permitted people to come who have never before received teachings or transmission. Anyone who asked him was allowed to come or so I understand. There are 1100 people in attendance from all over the world. This is probably that largest single group of people outside of Tibet to receive tögal teachings at one time.
̄
I think it is useful to write what Rinpoche said in His open webcast: His visions of Thogal are from His dreams because He has not enough time to do the retreat to accomplish them. So I don't know if the teachings from such visions are not different from the teachings which are given by other realized masters?

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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Post by Dechen Norbu » Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:22 pm

Basically you are casting suspicions on ChNN's attainments on Togal, Mariusz, even if in a more or less cloaked fashion.
You really can't help yourself, can you?
Some teachers limit themselves parroting what they read in books dude. OTOH, ChNN experience with Togal's visions is absolutely amazing.
Last edited by Dechen Norbu on Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Post by kalden yungdrung » Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:23 pm

Mariusz wrote:
Malcolm wrote:For all interested people:

ChNN is giving a wonderful teaching on tögal. He even permitted people to come who have never before received teachings or transmission. Anyone who asked him was allowed to come or so I understand. There are 1100 people in attendance from all over the world. This is probably that largest single group of people outside of Tibet to receive tögal teachings at one time.
̄
I think it is useful to write what Rinpoche said in His open webcast: His visions of Thogal are from His dreams because He has not enough time to do the retreat to accomplish them. So I don't know if the teachings from such visions are not different from the teachings which are given by other realized masters?

Tashi delek,

It is wellknown that some Dzogchen Masters do explain their experiences as the example for the practice of their students.

That seems to be again a different approach to what Dzogchen could be.
There are many roads leading to Rome, or one can get to Rome also inside the dreams. :applause:

By the way which retreat is not finished by Nakai Norbu?

But great Masters don' t need to finish everything if they are realised. That finishing does indicate something like working for something and we know Dzogchen is without preparation, effort, etc. so i guess that in this lineage there is not much preparations needed for the realisations like Thogal , DI, Trekchod etc.

It all comes from alone without efforts........

So doubtfull if great Masters do need special preparatory practices like you did suggest. :D

Mutsog Marro
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Mariusz
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Post by Mariusz » Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:38 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mariusz wrote:
Malcolm wrote:For all interested people:

ChNN is giving a wonderful teaching on tögal. He even permitted people to come who have never before received teachings or transmission. Anyone who asked him was allowed to come or so I understand. There are 1100 people in attendance from all over the world. This is probably that largest single group of people outside of Tibet to receive tögal teachings at one time.
̄
I think it is useful to write what Rinpoche said in His open webcast: His visions of Thogal are from His dreams because He has not enough time to do the retreat to accomplish them. So I don't know if the teachings from such visions are not different from the teachings which are given by other realized masters?

Tashi delek,

It is wellknown that some Dzogchen Masters do explain their experiences as the example for the practice of their students.

That seems to be again a different approach to what Dzogchen could be.
There are many roads leading to Rome, or one can get to Rome also inside the dreams. :applause:

By the way which retreat is not finished by Nakai Norbu?

But great Masters don' t need to finish everything if they are realised. That finishing does indicate something like working for something and we know Dzogchen is without preparation, effort, etc. so i guess that in this lineage there is not much preparations needed for the realisations like Thogal , DI, Trekchod etc.

It all comes from alone without efforts........

So doubtfull if great Masters do need special preparatory practices like you did suggest. :D

Mutsog Marro
KY
Thank you. It was useful.

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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Post by Bubbles » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:41 pm

booker wrote:
Sönam wrote:
Silent Bob wrote:If you read the book a little more closely, Thrangu Rinpoche says on p.205, "If you want to do any of these types of practices then you should get instruction from a lama and meditate according to their instructions. If you just do it on your own without any instructions, it will not be easy and you will have many difficulties and problems". I don't see how he could have said it any more clearly.
may be it's true, but let's also admit that it's the classical Tibetan approach of "never without a master" ... a bit like "I am an absolute ignorant, ..."

Could we accept that nowadays, with the important existing litterature and the accessibility of open teachings, it could be otherwise?

Sönam
Webcast Direct Transmission wrote: Newcomers who want to participate at a World Wide Transmission should be seriously interested in the Dzogchen Teachings, which are transmitted by our Teacher Chögyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche and practiced by our worldwide Dzogchen Community. New participants at a Direct Transmission should try to receive Teachings from Chögyal Namkhai Norbu personally in the future.
From my research, it shows that ChNN gives worldwide transmission through webcast on Guru Yoga. It's not transmission of Trekcho or Togal. I also didn't find any teachings/retreat directly on Trekcho and Togal, offered by him in person. Am I missing something? Is webcast worldwide transmission on guru yoga sufficient to start the Togal practice on our own? Thanks.

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Malcolm
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Post by Malcolm » Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:00 pm

Bubbles wrote:
Am I missing something? Is webcast worldwide transmission on guru yoga sufficient to start the Togal practice on our own? Thanks.
Yes. You are missing a teacher who can guide you. No, WWT is not sufficient.
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Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

Bubbles
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Post by Bubbles » Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:20 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Bubbles wrote:
Am I missing something? Is webcast worldwide transmission on guru yoga sufficient to start the Togal practice on our own? Thanks.
Yes. You are missing a teacher who can guide you. No, WWT is not sufficient.
Hi Malcolm,

How closely can these top teachers work with individual students? From my experience, there's not much one-on-one guidance offered by top teachers; because they're so sought after. I could be wrong. Anyway, regarding ChNN, I haven't found any specific in-person courses/retreat given on Trekcho and Thogal. So, do these Rinpoches offer personal guidance after they get to know the students, informally, not necessarily in class settings; maybe because the experiences are esoteric? Again, if anyone has a URL link to any course they have found, I'd really appreciate it.

Thank you.
Bubbles

deemoid
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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Post by deemoid » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:41 pm

Hi . . . I've had a rare teaching on this and I think you need a teacher . . . but I think it's different to initiation - would need to ask a qualified lama. More generally Lama Jampa Thaye lays out the reason we need a teacher in the following video: https://youtu.be/BDcUj8nhCqo

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Re: Tögal for dzogchen beginners?

Post by krodha » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:31 pm

Bubbles wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Bubbles wrote:
Am I missing something? Is webcast worldwide transmission on guru yoga sufficient to start the Togal practice on our own? Thanks.
Yes. You are missing a teacher who can guide you. No, WWT is not sufficient.
Hi Malcolm,

How closely can these top teachers work with individual students? From my experience, there's not much one-on-one guidance offered by top teachers; because they're so sought after. I could be wrong. Anyway, regarding ChNN, I haven't found any specific in-person courses/retreat given on Trekcho and Thogal. So, do these Rinpoches offer personal guidance after they get to know the students, informally, not necessarily in class settings; maybe because the experiences are esoteric? Again, if anyone has a URL link to any course they have found, I'd really appreciate it.

Thank you.
Bubbles
Last time ChNN taught daytime thögal was maybe three years ago, he does it in person so you have to travel to him, there's no teaching available online.

Rinpoche technically teaches tregchö all the time, but teaches tregchö proper ala four chözhags only every now and then.

Best to be patient, save some money for travel and keep checking the schedule.

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