Appropriate relationship with Guru
Appropriate relationship with Guru
Hello,
many of us have close relationship with our gurus. There is devotion, respect and faith. But sometimes, I am just wondering if the form of our devotion to our gurus is appropriate. When one has devotion to his or her own guru does it mean that we have to always agree with our guru? Does it mean, that our guru is never wrong? Does it mean that our guru can never lost his or her temper with us? Should we ask our guru about everything (should I do this, should I do that etc.)?
Or am I just wrong and we should just always follow every thought and every word of our own guru (guru=buddha)? Basically no much space for free will.
Any ideas are very welcome!
many of us have close relationship with our gurus. There is devotion, respect and faith. But sometimes, I am just wondering if the form of our devotion to our gurus is appropriate. When one has devotion to his or her own guru does it mean that we have to always agree with our guru? Does it mean, that our guru is never wrong? Does it mean that our guru can never lost his or her temper with us? Should we ask our guru about everything (should I do this, should I do that etc.)?
Or am I just wrong and we should just always follow every thought and every word of our own guru (guru=buddha)? Basically no much space for free will.
Any ideas are very welcome!
Re: Appropriate relationship with Guru
Generally no. But it depends on the situation. The thing which is not appropriate is contrivance.wangdak wrote:Hello,
many of us have close relationship with our gurus. There is devotion, respect and faith. But sometimes, I am just wondering if the form of our devotion to our gurus is appropriate. When one has devotion to his or her own guru does it mean that we have to always agree with our guru? Does it mean, that our guru is never wrong? Does it mean that our guru can never lost his or her temper with us? Should we ask our guru about everything (should I do this, should I do that etc.)?
Or am I just wrong and we should just always follow every thought and every word of our own guru (guru=buddha)? Basically no much space for free will.
Any ideas are very welcome!
The Blessed One said:
"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
Re: Appropriate relationship with Guru
I don't think it means we always have to agree with our guru. In fact, HHDL stated at the Lam Rim teachings that if we think something our guru does is against the dharma we should say something, though in a respectful way.
These days I work as the translator and sometime cook/assistant for a geshe who I consider to be my teacher. Because of the nature of our relationship- not only am I his student but we also work together, we decided that the formal way of doing things would not work. Geshe la always encourages me to speak my mind and we do have debates, I am not afraid to disagree with him by any means! Also, if something that he explains during class is not clear to me, I have to be able to say that very directly, or I wouldn't be able to do my job. This is quite different from how I relate to the older lamas who are my teachers, because my role is only as their student. So I am much more reserved in expressing myself with them than with Geshe la.
Out of respect I do defer to Geshe Sonam for major decisions- after all he is my teacher and my boss as it were, and I recognize that while I might not agree, that does not mean that his education, qualities and knowledge do not far outweigh my own. Of course they do, that is why I took him as my teacher.
I think we have to balance sanity with respect. Over the top guru devotion has never been my cup of tea. But if we only focus on the guru's faults without seeing the qualities, and constantly fight him/her on every decision, we lose out on many of the benefits of the relationship.
These days I work as the translator and sometime cook/assistant for a geshe who I consider to be my teacher. Because of the nature of our relationship- not only am I his student but we also work together, we decided that the formal way of doing things would not work. Geshe la always encourages me to speak my mind and we do have debates, I am not afraid to disagree with him by any means! Also, if something that he explains during class is not clear to me, I have to be able to say that very directly, or I wouldn't be able to do my job. This is quite different from how I relate to the older lamas who are my teachers, because my role is only as their student. So I am much more reserved in expressing myself with them than with Geshe la.
Out of respect I do defer to Geshe Sonam for major decisions- after all he is my teacher and my boss as it were, and I recognize that while I might not agree, that does not mean that his education, qualities and knowledge do not far outweigh my own. Of course they do, that is why I took him as my teacher.
I think we have to balance sanity with respect. Over the top guru devotion has never been my cup of tea. But if we only focus on the guru's faults without seeing the qualities, and constantly fight him/her on every decision, we lose out on many of the benefits of the relationship.
Re: Appropriate relationship with Guru
You might have some doubts about his/her knowledge of Danish cheeses or politics in Austria but it isn't proper to doubt his/her knowledge and realization of the natural state.wangdak wrote:Hello,
many of us have close relationship with our gurus. There is devotion, respect and faith. But sometimes, I am just wondering if the form of our devotion to our gurus is appropriate. When one has devotion to his or her own guru does it mean that we have to always agree with our guru? Does it mean, that our guru is never wrong? Does it mean that our guru can never lost his or her temper with us? Should we ask our guru about everything (should I do this, should I do that etc.)?
Or am I just wrong and we should just always follow every thought and every word of our own guru (guru=buddha)? Basically no much space for free will.
Any ideas are very welcome!
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Appropriate relationship with Guru
heart wrote:
You might have some doubts about his/her knowledge of Danish cheeses or politics in Austria but it isn't proper to doubt his/her knowledge and realization of the natural state.
/magnus
Yup, because if you do, that person should not be your guru and you should cease taking teachings from them immediately.
- waimengwan
- Posts: 183
- Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:16 am
Re: Appropriate relationship with Guru
If we have checked our guru there should not be any doubt anymore. And we are not to be slaves to the lama we should check what the lama says and if we cannot follow or think a certain way is not correct we must respectfully let the lama know.
Re: Appropriate relationship with Guru
But if him or her has realization of the natural state, it should imply, they are omniscient, so they should know even about Danis cheeses or am I getting it wrong?heart wrote:
You might have some doubts about his/her knowledge of Danish cheeses or politics in Austria but it isn't proper to doubt his/her knowledge and realization of the natural state.
/magnus
Re: Appropriate relationship with Guru
No, it doesn't actually in the Dzogchen tradition because in that case every Dzogchen practitioner would be omniscient. There is a big difference between recognizing and realizing fully.wangdak wrote:But if him or her has realization of the natural state, it should imply, they are omniscient, so they should know even about Danis cheeses or am I getting it wrong?heart wrote:
You might have some doubts about his/her knowledge of Danish cheeses or politics in Austria but it isn't proper to doubt his/her knowledge and realization of the natural state.
/magnus
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Appropriate relationship with Guru
heart wrote: No, it doesn't actually in the Dzogchen tradition because in that case every Dzogchen practitioner would be omniscient. There is a big difference between recognizing and realizing fully.
/magnus
So, what is the difference then? And did our teachers recognized their natural state or did they fully realized their natural state?
Re: Appropriate relationship with Guru
Most are somewhere in between I would say, or what do you think?wangdak wrote:heart wrote: No, it doesn't actually in the Dzogchen tradition because in that case every Dzogchen practitioner would be omniscient. There is a big difference between recognizing and realizing fully.
/magnus
So, what is the difference then? And did our teachers recognized their natural state or did they fully realized their natural state?
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Appropriate relationship with Guru
I don't have a clue. That's why I am asking. I know that for example, Tibetans are asking about everything but I am not sure, if it is a part of genuine devotion or if its just a "tibetan faith". And some Westerners do the same like: "should I buy a house, should I have a baby, should I do this job, should I have this relationship etc." Do you know what I mean? In my case, I always ask my teacher about my practice and about some inner hindrances on my path of practice but that's it. I would feel in some way ashamed to ask mundane questions as I mentioned above. I think there is a very tiny line between fascination of teacher's character and genuine devotion which is not linked with teacher's ordinary form or behaviour.heart wrote: Most are somewhere in between I would say, or what do you think?
/magnus
And then, you can read about Naropa's devotion to Tilopa and I am wrong and it all make sense...
Re: Appropriate relationship with Guru
Fifty Stanzas on Guru Devotion by Aryasura
http://www.dharmakirti.org/online_libra ... votion.pdf
http://www.dharmakirti.org/online_libra ... votion.pdf
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.
-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra
"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."
-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra
"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."
-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
Re: Appropriate relationship with Guru
I think you are right, it is a tiny thin line. I think you might be a little disturbed what others do but it is not really your business, right? You should ask about the natural state because it is, at least for me, the clue for devotion to develop in a deeper way. I told someone this at a retreat recently and she immediately felt bad because she only ask about work and love and relations. She then went to see our Guru and asked if she asked the wrong questions , he told her that it is ok to ask anything "Guru is also father and friend, but if you never ask about Dharma you will not understand that much". People are different, better not judge to harshly.wangdak wrote:I don't have a clue. That's why I am asking. I know that for example, Tibetans are asking about everything but I am not sure, if it is a part of genuine devotion or if its just a "tibetan faith". And some Westerners do the same like: "should I buy a house, should I have a baby, should I do this job, should I have this relationship etc." Do you know what I mean? In my case, I always ask my teacher about my practice and about some inner hindrances on my path of practice but that's it. I would feel in some way ashamed to ask mundane questions as I mentioned above. I think there is a very tiny line between fascination of teacher's character and genuine devotion which is not linked with teacher's ordinary form or behaviour.heart wrote: Most are somewhere in between I would say, or what do you think?
/magnus
And then, you can read about Naropa's devotion to Tilopa and I am wrong and it all make sense...
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Appropriate relationship with Guru
When I met my teacher I wasn't really looking forward to it. I was more interested in who else might come to the retreat. Would there be any interesting women there and so on? My teacher wasn't a very high lama in the lineage and so I wasn't really expecting much. Then I started to listen to his teaching and I was blown away and confused at the same time. I asked him questions and received answers that were so sharp and penetrating that I couldn't help but be inspired. That all happened a long time ago but the inspiration stays with me and is here all the time. I don't have to contrive anything - that inspiration flavors all my experiences. I don't need a close relationship with my teacher or to be at his side because I have the inspiration and I have confidence.
The Blessed One said:
"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
Re: Appropriate relationship with Guru
What can I say, just congratulations I guess. Who is/was your teacher?Andrew108 wrote:When I met my teacher I wasn't really looking forward to it. I was more interested in who else might come to the retreat. Would there be any interesting women there and so on? My teacher wasn't a very high lama in the lineage and so I wasn't really expecting much. Then I started to listen to his teaching and I was blown away and confused at the same time. I asked him questions and received answers that were so sharp and penetrating that I couldn't help but be inspired. That all happened a long time ago but the inspiration stays with me and is here all the time. I don't have to contrive anything - that inspiration flavors all my experiences. I don't need a close relationship with my teacher or to be at his side because I have the inspiration and I have confidence.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Appropriate relationship with Guru
I've always thought that the omniscience of the guru applied to omniscience of the natural state and had nothng to do with Dansh cheeses or politics.
But I could be wrong.
But I could be wrong.
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.
Re: Appropriate relationship with Guru
Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche is the teacher I am talking about in my last post. I would also consider Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche to be of equal inspiration.heart wrote:Who is/was your teacher?
/magnus
The Blessed One said:
"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
Re: Appropriate relationship with Guru
I got some transcripts from his teachings on the "Lam rim yeshe nyinpo" that are quite good, did you receive that teaching from him?Andrew108 wrote:Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche is the teacher I am talking about in my last post. I would also consider Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche to be of equal inspiration.heart wrote:Who is/was your teacher?
/magnus
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Appropriate relationship with Guru
No I haven't received that teaching from him.
The Blessed One said:
"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Appropriate relationship with Guru
I have a wonderful memory of the only time I met Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso.
I happened to be in Scotland at the time and we heard that he was giving a course on Holy Isle off Arran in the Firth of Clyde. I and some friends managed to borrow a small rowing boat with an outboard motor when we arrived in Arran. It was close to sunset and a heavy sea mist had come down and although Holy Isle is only c.100 metres from Arran itself it could not be seen from the shore. So we set out in the mist across a very calm sea in the twilight to meet with him. When we got there he talked with us for half an hour or so and sang us one of Milarepa's songs.
It was magical.
I happened to be in Scotland at the time and we heard that he was giving a course on Holy Isle off Arran in the Firth of Clyde. I and some friends managed to borrow a small rowing boat with an outboard motor when we arrived in Arran. It was close to sunset and a heavy sea mist had come down and although Holy Isle is only c.100 metres from Arran itself it could not be seen from the shore. So we set out in the mist across a very calm sea in the twilight to meet with him. When we got there he talked with us for half an hour or so and sang us one of Milarepa's songs.
It was magical.
This is not the wrong life.