Yidam and Dzogchen

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heart
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by heart » Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:39 am

Sönam wrote:The All-Creating Monarch states ...

<cut>

Anyway what ever would be the numerous references given, those defending ngondro, yidams and others skillful means 'technics' will disagree. They generally do not produce any reference except their certitude ... maybe they have invested too long into "skillful practices" and are not able to approach Dzogchen as it is. Maybe there is others raisons.
I also see that they need to refere a lot to what is written in their texts ... without, it seems they do not see ... Buddha nature seems a theory.
Namdrol did make often the relation between Dzogchen and Madhyamaka, when not in rigpa ... not with HYT.

Nevertheless ChNN, speaking (recently) about Guru Yoga (White A) said that it's only a tool ... and that like always we have to go in essence.
May be some of you, within there great knowledge (including Tibetan), would take advantage to go in essence.

May you all be happy
Sönam
Well of course none of us disagree with the Kunjed Gyalpo Tantra Sönam, why do you think that?
We given you plenty of references and on top of that our own experience from actually practicing Dzogchen closely under the same qualified teacher for many years. When you understand what kind of tool (means) the Guru yoga with a white Ah is maybe we can talk again. You obviously think that you can stay for days on end in the natural state but that is not it Sönam.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by conebeckham » Wed Sep 08, 2010 6:21 pm

I'm not really a Dzokchenpa, so perhaps not even qualified to say anything here....but I have enjoyed this thread, and have been involved in conversations that are quite similar, from a Mahamudra perspective.

Of course, I've read some Dzokchen materials, and even practiced (or dabbled in, rather) sadhanas associated with Dzokchen--Konchok Chidu's Guru Shiwa, and LongNying Rigdzin Dupa, as well as Chogling Sangtik Purba and the Riwo Sangcho practice, to name a few.

Mahamudra has a tradition of practice based on Shinay and Lhaktong, which we could consider methods apart from "tantra." But at some point, there is "Pointing Out Instruction," and from that point on, if one "gets" it, the main practice consists in resting in the nature of Ordinary Mind...or, rather, attempting to rest in that. It strikes me that some here are advocating a sort of "Dzokchen practice" which resembles this. (I could be misinterpreting this though...)

The most widely-stressed "technique" in Mahamudra tradition for finding or re-finding this state is Guru Yoga, which is tantra. But there are also the stages of Creation and Completion, which serve to foster recognition and recollection of the state through various means, some quite powerful--thus, you have the Six Yogas, etc. These practices are not "essential" to practice Mahamudra....but at some point a practitioner realizes that "abiding" is not as easy as it sounds. Stores of merit, purification, and other skillful means then become the aspects of effort on the path.

I've met practitioners of both Mahamudra and Dzokchen who talk about "Abiding," "resting in the View," or other such terms, and express the view that all other methods and techniques are merely "adjuncts." Of course I can't judge their states of mind or see within them to determine to what extent they "abide," but their assertions and statements are often made with an attitude of pride, or dismissal, or arrogance....or so it has seemed to me. Where there's smoke, there is most likely fire, in any case.

We have to be honest with ourselves, first of all. If we get upset, or under the sway of the poisons, clinging, aversion, etc., that's a pretty sure bet that we have work to do. We're not "abiding" in anything that we should be "abiding" in, and our time would be better spent working with the methods that have come down to us through the great lineages of Mahamudra and Dzokchen--and those methods definitely stress things like ngondro, yidam practice, and other skillful means.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:34 pm

conebeckham wrote:I'm not really a Dzokchenpa, so perhaps not even qualified to say anything here....but I have enjoyed this thread, and have been involved in conversations that are quite similar, from a Mahamudra perspective.

Of course, I've read some Dzokchen materials, and even practiced (or dabbled in, rather) sadhanas associated with Dzokchen--Konchok Chidu's Guru Shiwa, and LongNying Rigdzin Dupa, as well as Chogling Sangtik Purba and the Riwo Sangcho practice, to name a few.

Mahamudra has a tradition of practice based on Shinay and Lhaktong, which we could consider methods apart from "tantra." But at some point, there is "Pointing Out Instruction," and from that point on, if one "gets" it, the main practice consists in resting in the nature of Ordinary Mind...or, rather, attempting to rest in that. It strikes me that some here are advocating a sort of "Dzokchen practice" which resembles this. (I could be misinterpreting this though...)

The most widely-stressed "technique" in Mahamudra tradition for finding or re-finding this state is Guru Yoga, which is tantra. But there are also the stages of Creation and Completion, which serve to foster recognition and recollection of the state through various means, some quite powerful--thus, you have the Six Yogas, etc. These practices are not "essential" to practice Mahamudra....but at some point a practitioner realizes that "abiding" is not as easy as it sounds. Stores of merit, purification, and other skillful means then become the aspects of effort on the path.

I've met practitioners of both Mahamudra and Dzokchen who talk about "Abiding," "resting in the View," or other such terms, and express the view that all other methods and techniques are merely "adjuncts." Of course I can't judge their states of mind or see within them to determine to what extent they "abide," but their assertions and statements are often made with an attitude of pride, or dismissal, or arrogance....or so it has seemed to me. Where there's smoke, there is most likely fire, in any case.

We have to be honest with ourselves, first of all. If we get upset, or under the sway of the poisons, clinging, aversion, etc., that's a pretty sure bet that we have work to do. We're not "abiding" in anything that we should be "abiding" in, and our time would be better spent working with the methods that have come down to us through the great lineages of Mahamudra and Dzokchen--and those methods definitely stress things like ngondro, yidam practice, and other skillful means.

Hello Conebeckham, :)

Thanks for the reply.

But would not it be better to continue here?
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3&start=40" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Because here is allready discussed some essential part(s) of your reply. :D

Best wishes for our practice
Kalden Yungdrung
The best meditation is no meditation

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Pero » Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:45 pm

heart wrote: Well, it is higher then the base, right?
LOL yeah, you got me there. :D
I have "the precious vase" (the base level) and it does contain a lot of means. I would say that it is all presented as a preliminary (Ngondro) since there is no main part and concluding section in the book. In a normal Dzogchen text there is always a preliminary section, the main part and a concluding section.
Ah good point.. I don't consider it a Dzogchen text though.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by conebeckham » Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:32 pm

Kalden Yundrung wrote:
Hello Conebeckham,

Thanks for the reply.

But would not it be better to continue here?
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=1363&start=40

Because here is allready discussed some essential part(s) of your reply.
No, I don't think so.

Because I'm not addressing the difference between Dzokchen and Mahamudra.
I'm talking about a similarity--in that some Mahamudra practitioners also apparently see Yidam practice, etc., as "extraneous" to the practice. While I'd say that ngondro, yidam practice, and other skillful means aren't "essential" to Mahamudra, or to Dzokchen, I'd only say that with some grave reservations.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by heart » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:54 am

Sönam wrote: Namdrol did make often the relation between Dzogchen and Madhyamaka, when not in rigpa ... not with HYT.
If I remember correctly the discussion was if the emptiness in Dzogchen was more of Rangtong or Shengtong flavor. Namdrol as a Sakya of course supported the view of Rangtong. He never said that Dzogchen is a sutrayana practice.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by heart » Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:49 am

conebeckham wrote: I'm talking about a similarity--in that some Mahamudra practitioners also apparently see Yidam practice, etc., as "extraneous" to the practice. While I'd say that ngondro, yidam practice, and other skillful means aren't "essential" to Mahamudra, or to Dzokchen, I'd only say that with some grave reservations.
Hi Cone, thank you for your input. It is true, the same arguments exists among the western Kagyu students. Still I sincerely doubt that someone on the path can do without skillful means. The means get more and more subtle but they are there until fruition, and if we consider the life of great Dzogchen masters such as Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche and Tulku Urgyen it is quite obvious that even then, in particular then, skillful means and wisdom is always together.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by conebeckham » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:49 pm

Thanks, Magnus, and I agree.
One need only look at the daily practice regimen of any of these Lamas to determine what they considered "essential" (or at least important enough to recite daily) in their practice. Granted, "abiding" is not something one could pin down to sessions and breaks, but it's impossible for someone to know readily if anyone is really "abiding in Rigpa/Tamel Gyi Shepa" or not.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by heart » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:22 pm

conebeckham wrote:Thanks, Magnus, and I agree.
One need only look at the daily practice regimen of any of these Lamas to determine what they considered "essential" (or at least important enough to recite daily) in their practice. Granted, "abiding" is not something one could pin down to sessions and breaks, but it's impossible for someone to know readily if anyone is really "abiding in Rigpa/Tamel Gyi Shepa" or not.
Exactly, visualization or mantra recitation is not an impediment to rest in the natural state, it can actually help.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Heruka » Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:00 am

heart wrote:
Heruka wrote:my emphisis.


What, then, is the profound and special feature of the Dzogchen teachings? According to the more recent traditions of Tibetan Buddhism, collectively known as the Sarma schools of the Secret Mantra Vehicle, in order for this fundamental innate mind of clear light to become fully evident, it is necessary first of all for the coarser levels of ordinary mind, caught up with thoughts and concepts, to be harnessed by yogas, such as the yoga of vital energies, pranayoga, or the yoga of inner heat, tummo. On the basis of these yogic practices, and in the wake of those adventitious thought patterns of ordinary mind being harnessed and purified, the fundamental innate mind of clear light'mind' in that sense becomes fully evident.

From the point of view of Dzogchen, the understanding is that the adventitious level of mind, which is caught up with concepts and thoughts, is by its very nature permeated by pure awareness. In an experiential manner, the student can be directly introduced by an authentic master to the very nature of his or her mind as pure awareness. If the master is able to effect this direct introduction, the student then experiences all of these adventitious layers of conceptual thought as permeated by the pure awareness which is their nature, so that these layers of ordinary thoughts and concepts need not continue. Rather, the student experiences the nature that permeates them as the fundamental innate mind of clear light, expressing itself in all its nakedness. That is the principle by which practice proceeds on the path of Dzogchen.




Dear Heruka, I think that your knowledge is mainly theoretical. Even what you write above about the Sarma schools is very generalized and sounds very theoretical to me. .
hello magnus, its actually dalai lamas words from his book dzogchen


at the beginning i wrote .....dalai lama says.

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Heruka » Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:05 am

Heruka wrote:dalai lama says.

The following is an excerpt from the book.

..................[snip]....>>>

What, then, is the profound and special feature of the Dzogchen teachings? According to the more recent traditions of Tibetan Buddhism, collectively known as the Sarma schools of the Secret Mantra Vehicle, in order for this fundamental innate mind of clear light to become fully evident, it is necessary first of all for the coarser levels of ordinary mind, caught up with thoughts and concepts, to be harnessed by yogas, such as the yoga of vital energies, pranayoga, or the yoga of inner heat, tummo. On the basis of these yogic practices, and in the wake of those adventitious thought patterns of ordinary mind being harnessed and purified, the fundamental innate mind of clear light'mind' in that sense becomes fully evident.



sorry it wasnt clear.

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Heruka » Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:13 am

conebeckham wrote:Thanks, Magnus, and I agree.
One need only look at the daily practice regimen of any of these Lamas to determine what they considered "essential" (or at least important enough to recite daily) in their practice.

a quick glance at the three series of dzogchen, at the essential practices for each series, we have the semde mind series, with shine, lhagthong, nyimed and lhundrub. for the longde space series we have the four da's and the mennagde series the four chogshags.

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by heart » Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:46 am

Heruka wrote:
hello magnus, its actually dalai lamas words from his book dzogchen


at the beginning i wrote .....dalai lama says.
:oops: I am deeply embarrassed. It did sound like something out of a book so my answer is still valid. :smile:

/magnus
Last edited by heart on Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by heart » Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:00 am

Heruka wrote:
conebeckham wrote:Thanks, Magnus, and I agree.
One need only look at the daily practice regimen of any of these Lamas to determine what they considered "essential" (or at least important enough to recite daily) in their practice.

a quick glance at the three series of dzogchen, at the essential practices for each series, we have the semde mind series, with shine, lhagthong, nyimed and lhundrub. for the longde space series we have the four da's and the mennagde series the four chogshags.
Don't think they practiced a lot of semde or longde but for sure they all applied Trechö all through the night and day and when auspicious or possible the Tögal practices. They also did their daily sadhanas and prayers for hours every day. Read "Brilliant moon".

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:05 am

heart wrote:
Heruka wrote:
conebeckham wrote:Thanks, Magnus, and I agree.
One need only look at the daily practice regimen of any of these Lamas to determine what they considered "essential" (or at least important enough to recite daily) in their practice.

a quick glance at the three series of dzogchen, at the essential practices for each series, we have the semde mind series, with shine, lhagthong, nyimed and lhundrub. for the longde space series we have the four da's and the mennagde series the four chogshags.
Don't think they practiced a lot of semde or longde but for sure they all applied Trechö all through the night and day and when auspicious or possible the Tögal practices. They also did their daily sadhanas and prayers for hours every day. Read "Brilliant moon".

/magnus

Hello dear Dzogchen readers, :)

I was asking myself that the Rushen was not mentioned here. :(
Kordo Rushen (internal and external), Trekchod and Thogal. :D

Best wishes for our practice :bow:
Kalden Yungdrung
The best meditation is no meditation

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by mutsuk » Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:15 pm

Heruka wrote: a quick glance at the three series of dzogchen, at the essential practices for each series, we have the semde mind series, with shine, lhagthong, nyimed and lhundrub. for the longde space series we have the four da's and the mennagde series the four chogshags.
This is an over-simplification which is quite current in the DC. However, this is far from mirroring the actual contents of the texts. If you take Semde for instance, what you list is representing the Khams tradition only. This is not how the teachings are presented in other lineages of Semde. A similar statement can be made regarding the Four Symbols of Longde: these are one aspect of the Longde practice, there are others, such as the three Kachikmas (skad-gcig-ma) and a gigantic set of Yidam practices centered on Ngöndzok Gyelpo. For the Man-ngag-sde, the four chogshag are one way of explaining things, and it's not necessarily like this in all Nyingthiks. This way of presenting the practices in the 3 Series is therefore an over-simplification which often leads to contradictions.

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Pero » Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:18 pm

mutsuk wrote:...such as the three Kachikmas (skad-gcig-ma) and a gigantic set of Yidam practices centered on Ngöndzok Gyelpo.
Can you say more about these two? Especially the Kachigmas? What are they?
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Heruka » Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:37 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:

Hello dear Dzogchen readers, :)

I was asking myself that the Rushen was not mentioned here. :(
Kordo Rushen (internal and external), Trekchod and Thogal. :D

Best wishes for our practice :bow:
Kalden Yungdrung


hi kalden, because i think its best to only discuss generalizations and "quick glances" and not specifics on a open forum.


if others want to talk open and specific about four das, and chogshags, rushens, semdzins, longde's ngondzog gyalpo etc, thats their own look out.

theres no ngondro in any of it.

and thats the last im going to entertain this topic.


good luck in practice kalden!

:anjali:

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by Josef » Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:55 pm

Heruka wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:

Hello dear Dzogchen readers, :)

I was asking myself that the Rushen was not mentioned here. :(
Kordo Rushen (internal and external), Trekchod and Thogal. :D

Best wishes for our practice :bow:
Kalden Yungdrung


theres no ngondro in any of it.
Technically Rushen is a ngondro.

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Re: Yidam and Dzogchen

Post by mutsuk » Fri Sep 10, 2010 7:28 pm

Pero wrote: Can you say more about these two? Especially the Kachigmas? What are they?
This is a practice coming from Nubchen Sangye Yeshe and Jnanakumara. It's taken from the Longchen Rabjam Tantra and is based on what is defined as skad-cig-ma dang-po shes-pa, meaning the "first instantaneous consciousness" or something like that. This refers to the state of the consciousness before the arising of thoughts. There are two ways of explaining the practice depending on how the instructions are structured : "day, night, and morning", or the three moments of practice (equipoise, relaxation and progress).

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