The concept of being already perfect

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alwayslearning
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The concept of being already perfect

Post by alwayslearning »

Hi - I am pretty new with all this Dharma stuff. Can someone tell me if there is a single term for the conceptual idea that we are already perfect, already pure, already liberated as beings?
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ground
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Re: The concept of being already perfect

Post by ground »

alwayslearning wrote:Hi - I am pretty new with all this Dharma stuff. Can someone tell me if there is a single term for the conceptual idea that we are already perfect, already pure, already liberated as beings?
It is called Upaya, skillful means but actually it is fostering delusion. Why? Because there is neither perfection nor imperfection, neither pure nor impure, neither liberated nor being caught. But since ordinarily what perceives itself as "a being" and as "I" is attracted by words that engender affirmation of self and agreeable feelings and hope these words (perfect, pure, liberated) are utilized to attract attention and cause agreeable feelings and faith. :sage:
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Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: The concept of being already perfect

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi »

alwayslearning wrote:Hi - I am pretty new with all this Dharma stuff. Can someone tell me if there is a single term for the conceptual idea that we are already perfect, already pure, already liberated as beings?
Sugatagarbha.

Because the perfect buddhas’s kaya is all-pervading,
Because reality is undifferentiated,
And because they possess the potential,
Beings always have the buddha nature.


http://books.google.com/books?id=Tz_Gnh ... e&q&f=true" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It has been the misfortune (not, as these gentlemen think it, the glory) of this age that everything is to be discussed. Edmund Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France.
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Grigoris
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Re: The concept of being already perfect

Post by Grigoris »

Tathagatagarbha is another term for this concept.
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Seishin
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Re: The concept of being already perfect

Post by Seishin »

I don't like viewing this concept as being already perfect, but a bit like how Lotus Flowers grow out of the crud at the bottom of a pond. Our capability is already there, we just need to rise above the crap to let our flowers bloom :twothumbsup:

Gassho,
Seishin.
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Queequeg
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Re: The concept of being already perfect

Post by Queequeg »

Hi All,

I am not quite sure that sugatagarbha/tathagatagarbha quite means a priori perfection. I believe those terms refer to potential for perfection.

Buddha-nature (buddhadhatu) might be the term AL is looking for.

I can only say with some familiarity with the Tientai interpretation - but because we all abide in the Buddha dharma realm, whether enlightened or not, we are by definition, in some sense, manifestations of the Buddha as we are - even as we suffer as deluded beings. From this perspective, even our suffering is the unending expression of Buddhahood, and Buddhahood is the expression of healing the suffering of the world in a perpetual process of universal enlightenment.

Bob Thurman tells a story he calls the Long Tale - Nayutas of kalpas in the future when each of us finally attains annuttara samyak sambodhi, we will look back on our past lives and see that at each and every moment in the unending string of moments leading to that awakening, we will realize that we had been enlightened all along. I think that is a variation on the basic concept.

In Japanese Buddhism, a concept called Hongaku - Original Enlightenment - developed in the medieval period under the influence of Tientai and Esoteric influences, which takes the assumption of already perfectly enlightened. It tended to corruption and degraded to the point people thought practice and effort for enlightenment were no longer necessary.

Pitfalls of dumbing down this very potent teaching.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Seishin
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Re: The concept of being already perfect

Post by Seishin »

Queequeg wrote:Pitfalls of dumbing down this very potent teaching.
Quite :good:
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Grigoris
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Re: The concept of being already perfect

Post by Grigoris »

Queequeg wrote:Hi All,

I am not quite sure that sugatagarbha/tathagatagarbha quite means a priori perfection. I believe those terms refer to potential for perfection.

Buddha-nature (buddhadhatu) might be the term AL is looking for.
Depends on which school of thought you subscribe to. Some consider it ( a priori) pure and perfect, others consider it as a potential. This is the first time I have seen dhatu translated as "nature", normally it means sphere, matrix or realm.
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Queequeg
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Re: The concept of being already perfect

Post by Queequeg »

gregkavarnos wrote:
Queequeg wrote:Hi All,

I am not quite sure that sugatagarbha/tathagatagarbha quite means a priori perfection. I believe those terms refer to potential for perfection.

Buddha-nature (buddhadhatu) might be the term AL is looking for.
Depends on which school of thought you subscribe to. Some consider it ( a priori) pure and perfect, others consider it as a potential. This is the first time I have seen dhatu translated as "nature", normally it means sphere, matrix or realm.
:namaste:
Hi Greg,

You're probably right that it depends on the tradition. I have seen tathagatagarbha and buddha nature used interchangeably, or even the latter as a translation of the former.

Regarding the "nature" translation of "dhatu", it is a peculiar translation. I wonder if "nature" is a twice removed translation of "dhatu" ie. Sanskrit -> Chinese -> English.

Dhatu does seem to fit the Tientai conception of Buddhanature - a rather involved explanation involving what Zhiyi called "mutual possession" of Dharma Realms. Anyway, that's why I premised my response with the lens through which I was approaching the question. Many terms various traditions use in common can have very different meaning.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Namgyal
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Re: The concept of being already perfect

Post by Namgyal »

'All beings are Buddhas but this is concealed by adventitious defilements, when their defilements are purified their Buddhahood is revealed.' [Hevajratantra]
:namaste:
JKhedrup
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Re: The concept of being already perfect

Post by JKhedrup »

I highly recommend the teachings from the Sublime Continuum/ Uttaratantra Shastra as they elucidate the concept of thatagathagarbha beautifully.
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Re: The concept of being already perfect

Post by deepbluehum »

The three kayas are complete, but we are in dualistic vision. Though the ocean is to the left we have the habit of going right. There's nothing in the way except this habit.
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Karma Dorje
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Re: The concept of being already perfect

Post by Karma Dorje »

alwayslearning wrote:Hi - I am pretty new with all this Dharma stuff. Can someone tell me if there is a single term for the conceptual idea that we are already perfect, already pure, already liberated as beings?
For most practitioners, the technical term for this is "hubris".
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava
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randomseb
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Re: The concept of being already perfect

Post by randomseb »

The sky is perceptually empty, but then a thick cloud layers rolls in, and it appears that the sky is now covered in clouds.. But as we all know from the existence of aircraft, the clouds are actually insubstantial accumulations of humidity and such, just a more dense version of air. Air is air, whether it looks like clouds or the empty sky, right?

So it is with your nature, although it appears that you are you, with a human's share of ego and memory and whatnot, riding in some body in some physical world. We're so busy watching the clouds that we don't pay attention to the sky!
Disclaimer: If I have posted about something, then I obviously have no idea what I am talking about!
T. Chokyi
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Re: The concept of being already perfect

Post by T. Chokyi »

alwayslearning wrote:Hi - I am pretty new with all this Dharma stuff. Can someone tell me if there is a single term for the conceptual idea that we are already perfect, already pure, already liberated as beings?
Dzogchen teachings have a term, in Tibetan its "kadag" which means pure from the beginning: "primordial purity".
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Rick
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Re: The concept of being already perfect

Post by Rick »

alwayslearning wrote:Can someone tell me if there is a single term for the conceptual idea that we are already perfect, already pure, already liberated as beings?
Fairy tale?

We might be pure freedom on the absolute level (if it exists). But, alas, we live on the relative level, don't we? Got these body things that age and decay, got emotions and desires that make us (literally) crazy, got dukkha up the wazoo.

Plenty of religions have a term for that which is beyond all hope of naming/fathoming. What good does it do to know it?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
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