The difference only seems like a difference from dualism vision. In dzogchen the Bindu is self arising. In yogini tantras it is visualized. But the deeper you go into both ways, one will see little difference, because in the mode of no dualism, there's no one to do or not do and there is no arising anyway. Of course details like winds dissolving into heart or becoming still in place seems like a big deal too, but when the guru's blessing comes through the winds are still anyway, because wind is result of attachment. Actually a wind doesn't dissolve. That's a misread. It's either blowing or not. The different colors that can be seen from elements are just like colors in a prism not something happening.dakini_boi wrote:Great post, deepbluehum. How do the methods for rainbow body in the Yogini tantras differ from in Dzogchen?deepbluehum wrote: Yogini tantras also have the result of rainbow body leaving onl hair and nails, and great transference.
Nice, thanks for that DBH, do you have a source for this please?deepbluehum wrote:Like today is guru day. Guru Rinpoche promised to appear to anyone who call him. But he's not somewhere hearing something and get in his sleigh like Santa Claus. He established this cause in his human form. So this form has this benefit.
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche
A Buddha would not make the mistake of thinking there was a self who was experiencing bliss.Nighthawk wrote:If only the dharmakaya is real and the sambhogakaya is not then how does a Buddha experience bliss since the dharmakaya is just nothingness?
My teacher.futerko wrote:Nice, thanks for that DBH, do you have a source for this please?deepbluehum wrote:Like today is guru day. Guru Rinpoche promised to appear to anyone who call him. But he's not somewhere hearing something and get in his sleigh like Santa Claus. He established this cause in his human form. So this form has this benefit.
It's not just nothingness. It's bliss. It's bliss and nothingness and that's why it's beyond words.Nighthawk wrote:If only the dharmakaya is real and the sambhogakaya is not then how does a Buddha experience bliss since the dharmakaya is just nothingness?
Nighthawk, what is real for our dualistic view, it is not truly real in the absolute level.deepbluehum wrote:It's not just nothingness. It's bliss. It's bliss and nothingness and that's why it's beyond words.Nighthawk wrote:If only the dharmakaya is real and the sambhogakaya is not then how does a Buddha experience bliss since the dharmakaya is just nothingness?
Like deepbluehum already said, it is not nothingness.
This kind of misapprehension makes me believe that we all need to study at least the basics of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism, before we jump to the deep waters of Dzogchen. Emptiness is one of the basic philosophical concepts in Tibetan Buddhism, but it is not nothingness!
Obviously, "emptiness" is not 100% correct interpretation of the Sanskrit/Tibetan term in English.
For more information, look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A%C5%ABnyat%C4%81
Personally, I prefer the terms: openness or thusness.
"Śūnyatā refers to the absence of inherent existence in all phenomena".
So, in Tibetan Buddhism the concept of emptiness goes always in pairs either with clarity or with bliss.
Never alone, since the 2 major downfalls are the extremes of nihilism and eternalism.
Moreover, the 3 kayas are never separated the one of the other.
"My view is as vast as the sky, but my actions are finer than flour"
~ Padmasambhava ~
~ Padmasambhava ~
Good old wikipedia when you want something quick and in a nutshell.Re: Rainbow body
Postby deepbluehum » Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:45 pm
What's happening is Westerners are importing ideas from Western religions with our hopes to be like Jesus. Garchen Rinpoche explained to me there's no body; and one must first understand the base before the result becomes clear. Trying to understand the result from dualism vision is a sure way to never realize it.
Rinpoche is a master of dzogchen, the fivefold practice Mahamudra, the six yogas of Naropa, and the preliminary practices (Tib. ngondro). He widely promotes Thogme Zangpo's Thirty-Seven Practices of a Bodhisattva and White Tara practice.
( the six yogas of Naropa)_That includes at least one of the forms of Phowa. All those yogas are interelated and serve a purpose. Now why would one be practicing them?
The method can be applied at the moment of death to transfer one's consciousness through the top of the head directly into a Buddha-field of one’s choice. By so doing, one bypasses some of the typical experiences that are said to occur after death. Example destinations are Sukhāvatī, Abhirati, Ghanavyūha, Aṭakāvatī, Mount Potala, the Copper-Colored Mountain (Wylie: Zangs-mdog dpal-ri), and Tuṣita; the most popular is Sukhavati.
In understanding the balance and how it relates to the rainbow body, I thought you might find these words useful...
"After having recognized one's own state, it is necessary to eliminate all doubts about it, not in a merely intellectual way, but rather through experience: instantaneous pure presence or recognition, called rigpa, must ripen and become more stable thanks to the various Longde methods tied to particular experiences of contemplation. Finally, the practitioner's task is to integrate the state of knowledge into all his or her daily activities and to develop that capacity to the point of unifying the energy of the physical body with the energy of the outer world. This is the aim of the practices of the third and final series, the Mennagde, the supreme realization of which lies in the manifestation of the "rainbow body," the total re-absorption of the material elements into the pure energy and luminous essence of the primordial state."'
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu;Adriano Clemente. The Supreme Source: The Fundamental Tantra of the Dzogchen Semde
Perhaps from our point of view we can speak of the Buddha experiencing bliss, in a certain way, as inferred from our experience, because we understand everything through the filter of our experience. We think everyone experiences things like we do. We have no other frame of reference.
Perhaps for the Buddha, the bliss is experienced, but but there is no ego to grasp, or reject the experience. The bliss arises, dwells, and goes, like a thief in an empty house. No harm done.
Perhaps it is exactly the same for the experience of the rainbow body, and all experiences.
But I am just guessing about these things.
Since we can only imagine how a Buddha might feel, perhaps the key point is whether a Nirmanakaya, embodied Buddha, stays around or goes elsewhere, and how we can encourage them to stay.
Long life to the Buddhas. May they live long, in good health and with success in all things.
when you wake up, your body of results, your fabricated physicality, remains and continues until the breakdown of its constituent parts. when via method the body of results reverts to the five colors and so on, these have since the beginning been the basis of results produced as fabrications. as any jina can release fabrications, so any rainbow body can be inactiveNighthawk wrote:What happens to the rainbow body if it is not actively maintained? Is it something that can be lost?
you can not lose some thing that is not there
you are looking for a difference in capacity from one time to a second time, then to a third time, in a strict sequence
you are looking for a difference in attribution from developing possession to having possession, then not having possession
a sequence of time is not strictly relevant
an attribute of possession is not strictly relevant
one kind of awareness-release looks like this
an other kind of awareness-release looks like that
these statements are not original to your thread
but are an attempt to clarify for you
using a particular style