eternity: why isn't everybody awaken?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
sangamaji
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:46 pm

eternity: why isn't everybody awaken?

Post by sangamaji »

dear friends,

why isn't everybody awaken, if samsara exist since eternal times?
Do I have failure in this thought?
I know that time is just a concept, but it didn't help me until know. :shrug:

With loving-kindness
sangamaji
User avatar
Wayfarer
Former staff member
Posts: 5150
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 8:31 am
Location: AU

Re: eternity: why isn't everybody awaken?

Post by Wayfarer »

As to whether 'the cosmos is eternal, or not', the following passage from the Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta might be helpful:
Then, when it was evening, Ven. Malunkyaputta arose from seclusion and went to the Blessed One. On arrival, having bowed down, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "Lord, just now, as I was alone in seclusion, this train of thought arose in my awareness: 'These positions that are undeclared, set aside, discarded by the Blessed One... I don't approve, I don't accept that the Blessed One has not declared them to me. I'll go ask the Blessed One about this matter. If he declares to me that "The cosmos is eternal,"... or that "After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist," then I will live the holy life under him. If he does not declare to me that "The cosmos is eternal,"... or that "After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist," then I will renounce the training and return to the lower life.'

"Lord, if the Blessed One knows that 'The cosmos is eternal,' then may he declare to me that 'The cosmos is eternal.' If he knows that 'The cosmos is not eternal,' then may he declare to me that 'The cosmos is not eternal.' But if he doesn't know or see whether the cosmos is eternal or not eternal, then, in one who is unknowing & unseeing, the straightforward thing is to admit, 'I don't know. I don't see.'... If he doesn't know or see whether after death a Tathagata exists... does not exist... both exists & does not exist... neither exists nor does not exist,' then, in one who is unknowing & unseeing, the straightforward thing is to admit, 'I don't know. I don't see.'"

"Malunkyaputta, did I ever say to you, 'Come, Malunkyaputta, live the holy life under me, and I will declare to you that 'The cosmos is eternal,' or 'The cosmos is not eternal,' or 'The cosmos is finite,' or 'The cosmos is infinite,' or 'The soul & the body are the same,' or 'The soul is one thing and the body another,' or 'After death a Tathagata exists,' or 'After death a Tathagata does not exist,' or 'After death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist,' or 'After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist'?"

"No, lord."

"And did you ever say to me, 'Lord, I will live the holy life under the Blessed One and [in return] he will declare to me that 'The cosmos is eternal,' or 'The cosmos is not eternal,' or 'The cosmos is finite,' or 'The cosmos is infinite,' or 'The soul & the body are the same,' or 'The soul is one thing and the body another,' or 'After death a Tathagata exists,' or 'After death a Tathagata does not exist,' or 'After death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist,' or 'After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist'?"

"No, lord."

"Then that being the case, foolish man, who are you to be claiming grievances/making demands of anyone?
Source

So the question as to whether the cosmos is eternal, or whether it has a beginning or not, is one of those questions that is 'set aside'. The fact of existence is dukka, which is the case, whether the Cosmos has existed eternally, or not. That is the issue which the teaching sets out to understand, not 'whether the cosmos is eternal'.

:anjali:
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
shel
Posts: 1500
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:38 pm

Re: eternity: why isn't everybody awaken?

Post by shel »

I can't speak for anyone else but I'm what you'd call a slow-to-warm-up-babe.
User avatar
futerko
Posts: 1297
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:58 am

Re: eternity: why isn't everybody awaken?

Post by futerko »

If an eternity has already passed, then we still have an eternity to go. In other words we will only ever be half-way there! :shock:
User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
Posts: 6997
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: eternity: why isn't everybody awaken?

Post by kirtu »

sangamaji wrote:dear friends,

why isn't everybody awaken, if samsara exist since eternal times?
Do I have failure in this thought?
I know that time is just a concept, but it didn't help me until know. :shrug:
The actual reason sangamaji is that people do not wish to awaken. They wish to follow delusion and thus get enmired further and further in samsara. Even Buddhists. This was the observation of Buddhadassa Bhikkhu in "The Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree". Other Buddhist teachers have made this observation as well (Khandro Rinpoche for example in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition).

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
plwk
Posts: 2932
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:41 am

Re: eternity: why isn't everybody awaken?

Post by plwk »

So sangamaji, are you 'awakened'? If not, what are you waiting for? If yes, how do you know?
By the way, what is 'awaken'? Care to define it? :popcorn:
User avatar
takso
Posts: 97
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 11:08 am

Re: eternity: why isn't everybody awaken?

Post by takso »

Samsāra literally means ‘continuous flow’- referring to a repeating cycle of birth, life, death and re-birth. Samsāra is known as the impure part of the dependent nature and one thing that is consistently constant in it is becoming. The becoming process is the main reason for all things or happenings that we observe right here, right now, then or later. When there is a becoming process, there is a change process. When there is a change process, there is a circumstance that shapes up some sort of abilities in the dependent nature. This ability of sorts is also known as ‘energy’ in the scientific terminology. And time is merely an indicator for event; just like length, width and height are indicators for size and volume. So time is a dimension that is created by humans, not born (a non-natural existence) for the task of measurement per se.

In fact, the ‘I’ or ‘you’ or ‘we’ or nāmarūpa (5 skandhas) is purely part of the becoming processes in the dependent nature and the key element of it is energy. Both our mind and body are energy elements that would constantly orientate, transform and evolve in accordance with the subjected conditions. The physical body is shaped up as an appearance due to the existence of matter and the matter is basically concerted, aggregated or concentrated or wrapped energy.

At the same time, the existence of energy would give rise to the mind that in turn conjures up perceptions, conceptions, labels, boundaries, names, activities, shapes, relations, descriptions, stereotyping, beginning, ending, etc. The mind is a necessary pre-requisite for the circumstances of duality or multiplicity. No duality or multiplicity would arise in the non-existence of the mind. This is because there would be no subject to ponder on the other side of the object or matter. As such, we shall be clear by now that mind is the forerunner of all states. These circumstances of duality or multiplicity are merely the end result of various aggregated activities being observed, recorded and replayed by the conscious and the sub-conscious mind under the influence of conditional phenomena.

It is difficult for one to see into the ultimate truth since the dawn of time because the mind is dependent arising. In other words, the presence in the waves of dependent phenomena has clouded the mind from discerning the reality of circumstances i.e. ignorance arises. And we could see that emptiness exists in all conditional phenomena. Without emptiness, the potential movement of the mind from non-enlightenment towards a state of enlightenment would not be possible – that is to say if the mind itself existed inherently. The emptiness of inherent existence of the mind is called the Buddha nature.
~ Ignorance triumphs when wise men do nothing ~
User avatar
Roland
Posts: 195
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:33 pm

Re: eternity: why isn't everybody awaken?

Post by Roland »

Sleeping is more comfortable :zzz:
"Seek truth in meditation, not moldy books. Look in the sky to find the moon, not in the pond."
- Persian proverb
User avatar
lobster
Posts: 1001
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:06 pm
Contact:

Re: eternity: why isn't everybody awaken?

Post by lobster »

I agree with Kirt, most dharma is just a better class of snoozing :zzz:

Why are we so attached to dukkha? Maybe awakening is more responsibility and awareness than most are prepared for . . . Maybe delusion has its advantages, intensity for example . . .
User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 17092
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: eternity: why isn't everybody awaken?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

The universe is supposed to reset every so often anyway, so there is no permanent state, nor any limit on beings.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
Andrew108
Posts: 1502
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: eternity: why isn't everybody awaken?

Post by Andrew108 »

sangamaji wrote:dear friends,

why isn't everybody awaken, if samsara exist since eternal times?
Do I have failure in this thought?
I know that time is just a concept, but it didn't help me until know. :shrug:

With loving-kindness
sangamaji
Awakening is too close. People think awakening is far away.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21938
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: eternity: why isn't everybody awaken?

Post by Grigoris »

Awakening is not dependent on time, that's why.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
User avatar
Seishin
Former staff member
Posts: 1915
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:53 am
Contact:

Re: eternity: why isn't everybody awaken?

Post by Seishin »

Greg beat me to it.
florin
Posts: 1340
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: eternity: why isn't everybody awaken?

Post by florin »

Everything is eternal because nothing exists
sangamaji
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:46 pm

Re: eternity: why isn't everybody awaken?

Post by sangamaji »

thank you friends - a lot of good answers until now!
:anjali:
Rakz
Posts: 1381
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:04 am

Re: eternity: why isn't everybody awaken?

Post by Rakz »

Roland wrote:Sleeping is more comfortable :zzz:
+1
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21938
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: eternity: why isn't everybody awaken?

Post by Grigoris »

alpha wrote:Everything is eternal because nothing exists
Nothing is temporal because everything does not exist. :shrug:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
Posts: 6997
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: eternity: why isn't everybody awaken?

Post by kirtu »

gregkavarnos wrote:
alpha wrote:Everything is eternal because nothing exists
Nothing is temporal because everything does not exist. :shrug:
From the POV of a sentient being, all experiences arise in time.

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21938
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: eternity: why isn't everybody awaken?

Post by Grigoris »

I was just trying (and obviously failing miserably :tongue: ) to show the absurdity of the post "alpha" made by comparing it to the polar opposite position.

But hey, I tend to go with the philosophical position of the Maha Bhranta Adris on the issue of time:
phpBB [video]


Now these guys ARE eternal!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
greentara
Posts: 933
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:03 am

Re: eternity: why isn't everybody awaken?

Post by greentara »

Lobster, 'Why are we so attached to dukkha?
I don't think we are attached to Dukkha. I think the 'everyday' mind is naturally extraverted. Only a rare, ripe seeker dives within to examine, look closely at suffering and seek liberation.
Post Reply

Return to “Dharma in Everyday Life”