Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

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conebeckham
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Post by conebeckham »

I am of the non-expert opinion that Chakrasamvara is not included here, at least not in explicit form. All these deities are red, really, or are at least strongly associated with the Pema family and with "magnetizing." Varahi isn't "Pema family," but she's most certainly recognized for Power-gathering or magnetizing functions or qualities, amongst other things. I think the phrase "Demchog" means "Supreme Bliss," and not specifically the name of "Khorlo Dompa," "Khorlo Demchok," etc.

In the lineage prayer for Chogling Sangtik Phurba, for example, I read "demchok" in connection with the "Benzra Heruka," but it's clear the reference is to Yangdak Heruka, specifically, if one knows about the cycle of Sangtik Khor Sum.

Of course, the major Yidams of HYT in Sarma are really all-encompassing...all Buddha Families are implicitly there, and sometimes explicitly as well. And the real identity of Khorlo Dompa is truly Immutable Supreme Bliss...but I'll go on record as disagreeing with the translation that includes "Cakrasamvara" by name. Other deities can certainly be of the same ultimate identity--in fact, in some sense they all are.

Always willing to be proven wrong, though!
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
ngodrup
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Post by ngodrup »

I think the thing to do is ask one of Khenpo Jigpun's disciples.
Three I can think of in the Bay Area, Lama Drimed,
Khenpo Orgyen Thrinley and Tulku Jigme Wangrak.

Lama Drime's translation of the line is only three
deites: Chakrasamvara, Dope Gyalpo and Lha Chen.
pemachophel
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Post by pemachophel »

The author of the following Wiki page, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ACakrasaṃvara_Tantra, says that Chakrasamvara is a form of Shiva. I don't know who the author is and there is no supporting references. However, I Googled "Chakrasamvara + Shiva" thinking that Shiva might be considered an emanation of Chakrasamvara and that is why the epithet "Dem-chog." (This hunch is how I got to the afore-mentioned Wiki page.) This would confirm as well that the ninth Deity is Shiva or Mahadeva/Lhachen and not Takkiraja.

:namaste:
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
ngodrup
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Post by ngodrup »

If you read the Chakrasamvara tantra, you may well get the idea that Shri Heruka is
in fact Shiva. But Lha Chen is considered to be a protector among Nyingmapas--
many recite a short daily prayer to Lha Chen by Mipham ( Hri. Si Sum Wang Ze
Wang Gyi Lha Chen Po...) as part of the daily Dharmapala section.
Lha Chen is quite separate, and he is depicted with consort.

As an aside, we also commonly honor Ganesh and Vishnu as protectors.
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conebeckham
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Post by conebeckham »

Cakrasamvara is not exactly Shiva. Academics may say they are equivalent, but this is not a correct understanding according to the many Tibetan lineages of Cakrasamvara practice. It's more nuanced, even from a strictly "academic/historical" view. Looked at historically, CakrasamvaraTantras as texts arose out of Saivite roots. Of course, looked at from within the Buddhist Tantric traditions, Sakyamuni manifested as Cakrasamvara and taught the tantras. Some commentators have pointed out that, at the time these texts and practices arose, there was not such differentiation between, for example, Naths and Buddhist Tantrikas.

In fact, Shiva, in his form as Bhairava, is underneath the foot of Cakrasamvara. Of all the Sarma HYT deities, it is said that Samvara did not "dissolve" but remained in the world (on Mt. Kailash) and will do so eternally. Saivites and other "Hindu" practitioners may find this offensive, but one of the central ideas of Cakrasamvara's appearance is to dispel and subdue the destructive elements of Siva. This has to be understood esoterically. Cakrasamvara is essentially immutable Great Bliss. As it is understood and practiced today, Cakrasamvara is most certainly NOT Siva.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
pemachophel
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Post by pemachophel »

Agreed, Chakrasamvara is not Shiva, but is Shiva an emanation of Chakrasamvara? I'm just wondering if this is the reason Ju Mipham used the epithet "Dem-chog." If Shiva is an emanation of Chakrasamvara, then this would be a neat poetic construction.

:namaste:
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
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conebeckham
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Post by conebeckham »

According to academic scholars, Cakrasamvara Tantras, and thus the practices relating to them, arose out of a milieu which was "Saivite." But at that time, based on what I've read, the delineations between "Buddhist" and "Non-Buddhist" yogins and yoginis was somewhat fluid. Historically, I think an academic interpretation is that Cakrasamvara was a late textual development arising from Saivite norms or whatever. In other words, Siva came first.

According to all the Cakrasamvara lineages I've enountered in reading and practice, Siva is NOT an emanation of Cakrasamvara. In fact, Cakrasamvara is an emanation of Buddha, as upaya to subjugate Siva.

I maintain that "DemChog" merely means "Supreme Bliss" in this context, and has nothing to do with the deity, or practices of, Cakrasamvara.

You can find the words "Demchog" in many place in the tantric literature of both the Sarma and Nyingma schools. I would venture a guess that much or even most of the time, Cakrasamvara is not the referent for these words.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
ngodrup
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Post by ngodrup »

Which brings us back to Lha Chen -- one of the deities mentioned in the text--
is the protector Shiva, not synonymous with or even directly related with
the yidam Shri Heruka. Lha Chen, BTW, is red and depicted as standing with his
consort but not in union with her. He is very clearly a protector centered on
the red activity of power and magnetizing.
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Pema Tingdron
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Post by Pema Tingdron »

pemachophel wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:02 pm The author of the following Wiki page, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ACakrasaṃvara_Tantra, says that Chakrasamvara is a form of Shiva. I don't know who the author is and there is no supporting references. However, I Googled "Chakrasamvara + Shiva" thinking that Shiva might be considered an emanation of Chakrasamvara and that is why the epithet "Dem-chog." (This hunch is how I got to the afore-mentioned Wiki page.) This would confirm as well that the ninth Deity is Shiva or Mahadeva/Lhachen and not Takkiraja.

:namaste:
Dear Ven. Pema Chophel, did you ever get any further clarity on the interpretation of bde mchog 'dod pa' rgal po ? It's come up for me, too, since I now recite this prayer every day. Most of my experience is in Sarma, where - again, in my experience - Takkiraja is most definitely red (e.g. he is in the retinue of Guhyasamaja) and Chakrasamvara most definitely blue. So, I had been naturally assuming that Takkiraja a.k.a. Döpé Gyalpo was intended, with be mchog intended as a descriptor. But it would be helpful to know if I'm wrong. The two translations I've seen are split right down the middle on this question. (I was hoping there might be an autocommentary by Mipham Rinpoche that might provide a definitive answer, but if there is one, I haven't found it.) Thank you so much.
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Post by pemachophel »

It is Lhachen/Mahadev, not Chakrasamvara, according to all the commentaries I have seen as well as thangkas and wall frescoes.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
Malcolm
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Post by Malcolm »

pemachophel wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:22 pm It is Lhachen/Mahadev, not Chakrasamvara, according to all the commentaries I have seen as well as thangkas and wall frescoes.
No,it’s Takkiraja, one of the three red power deities.
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Post by SilenceMonkey »

pemachophel wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:34 am I've seen a couple of different renderings in English of the line that goes:

DEM-CHOG DOD-PAI GYAL-PO DE-CHEN-TER

Does this line refer only to Chakrasamvara and His attributes, i.e., "King of Desire, Treasure of Great Bliss," or does it enumerate Chakrasamvara, Takkiraja, and another Deity named Treasure of Great Bliss? If it's the latter, does anyone know Who the Treasure of Great Bliss is? A quick Google search turned up nothing.

Thanks.

:namaste:
I'm looking at a prayerbook compiled and edited by Namchak Khen Rinpoche of Ewam. His translation is:

"Sangwa Yeshe Vajravarahi; Chakrasamvara, King of Desire; Treasure of Great Bliss;"

From the translation, it would seem that "Treasure of Great Bliss" is a separate deity. There is a note saying this refers to Shiva.

But based on the context where each line is praising a single deity, wouldn't "Treasure of Great Bliss" would be an epithet (or praise) of Dem Chok?
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Post by pemachophel »

Malcolm,

Not according to Khenpo Sodargye and others.
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Malcolm
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Post by Malcolm »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:42 pm
pemachophel wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:34 am I've seen a couple of different renderings in English of the line that goes:

DEM-CHOG DOD-PAI GYAL-PO DE-CHEN-TER

Does this line refer only to Chakrasamvara and His attributes, i.e., "King of Desire, Treasure of Great Bliss," or does it enumerate Chakrasamvara, Takkiraja, and another Deity named Treasure of Great Bliss? If it's the latter, does anyone know Who the Treasure of Great Bliss is? A quick Google search turned up nothing.

Thanks.

:namaste:
I'm looking at a prayerbook compiled and edited by Namchak Khen Rinpoche of Ewam. His translation is:

"Sangwa Yeshe Vajravarahi; Chakrasamvara, King of Desire; Treasure of Great Bliss;"

It seems that "Treasure of Great Bliss" is a separate deity. There is a note saying this refers to Shiva.
There is a commentary on this by rme sprul bstan 'dzin rgya mtsho, a student of Khenpo Jikphun.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 4:03 pm
SilenceMonkey wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:42 pm
pemachophel wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:34 am I've seen a couple of different renderings in English of the line that goes:

DEM-CHOG DOD-PAI GYAL-PO DE-CHEN-TER

Does this line refer only to Chakrasamvara and His attributes, i.e., "King of Desire, Treasure of Great Bliss," or does it enumerate Chakrasamvara, Takkiraja, and another Deity named Treasure of Great Bliss? If it's the latter, does anyone know Who the Treasure of Great Bliss is? A quick Google search turned up nothing.

Thanks.

:namaste:
I'm looking at a prayerbook compiled and edited by Namchak Khen Rinpoche of Ewam. His translation is:

"Sangwa Yeshe Vajravarahi; Chakrasamvara, King of Desire; Treasure of Great Bliss;"

It seems that "Treasure of Great Bliss" is a separate deity. There is a note saying this refers to Shiva.
There is a commentary on this by rme sprul bstan 'dzin rgya mtsho, a student of Khenpo Jikphun.
Thanks, I'll try and find it.
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Sonam Wangchug
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Post by Sonam Wangchug »

Refers to Chakrasamvara according to Orgyen Tobgyal Rinpoche.
"To have confidence in the teacher is the ultimate refuge." -Rigzin Jigme Lingpa
Malcolm
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Re: Re Mipham's Tashi Tsikpa

Post by Malcolm »

Sonam Wangchug wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:53 pm Refers to Chakrasamvara according to Orgyen Tobgyal Rinpoche.
Takkirāja is a form of Cakrasamvara. Surprise, surprise.
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