Enlightened masters?
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Enlightened masters?
Are there any enlightened masters today, of any school? Who are those you feel are masters, bodhisattvas, arhats, etc.? Myself, I would have to say Thich Nhat Hanh would be at the top of my list.
"If you want to travel the Way of Buddhas and Zen masters, then expect nothing, seek nothing, and grasp nothing." -Dogen
Re: Enlightened masters?
From experience, the 'who's enlightened?' game is not useful and usually leads to a lot of arguments about people's favourite spiritual teachers. So it is probably better not to get into 'who is' as this invariably leads to 'who isn't'.
Notice that in the Buddhist texts the Buddha is nearly always referred to as 'Tathagatha'. This is not a personal name but the description of the state of being of the Buddha. It means both 'thus-gone' (where 'gone' means 'gone to Nirvana' or 'extinguished') and 'thus come'. But the point is, it is not the name of a person, but the condition of the realized being.
Teachers might also embody and be able to convey that state of being. But consideration of who does and who doesn't is rarely edifying.
Notice that in the Buddhist texts the Buddha is nearly always referred to as 'Tathagatha'. This is not a personal name but the description of the state of being of the Buddha. It means both 'thus-gone' (where 'gone' means 'gone to Nirvana' or 'extinguished') and 'thus come'. But the point is, it is not the name of a person, but the condition of the realized being.
Teachers might also embody and be able to convey that state of being. But consideration of who does and who doesn't is rarely edifying.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
Re: Enlightened masters?
For what it's worth, there's another topic about what a Zen master is and isn't here: http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=12285
Long (14 pages to date) story short, a Zen master is someone who's had a glimpse of Buddha nature, in addition to knowing some measure of Buddhist teachings and rituals, etc. A glimpse of Buddha nature essentially means having had a kensho experience.
So for the Zen tradition, "mastery" doesn't appear to necessarily mean enlightenment. In other words, a Zen master is not necessarily enlightened. No one seems to know exactly what a Zen master has mastered.
Long (14 pages to date) story short, a Zen master is someone who's had a glimpse of Buddha nature, in addition to knowing some measure of Buddhist teachings and rituals, etc. A glimpse of Buddha nature essentially means having had a kensho experience.
So for the Zen tradition, "mastery" doesn't appear to necessarily mean enlightenment. In other words, a Zen master is not necessarily enlightened. No one seems to know exactly what a Zen master has mastered.
Re: Enlightened masters?
I'm confident I've met people with real attainment.
Re: Enlightened masters?
Depends on the definition of enlightenment.
Everyone is enlightened to some degree. What is your threshold?
I do not know how enlightenment can be seen in others. If you see Tathagata, it is your enlightenment. If your don't see it, it's your view. Thus, I think that views have no power to grasp enlightenment, or to see it in others. As mentioned TNH said, "all views are wrong views".
Everyone is enlightened to some degree. What is your threshold?
I do not know how enlightenment can be seen in others. If you see Tathagata, it is your enlightenment. If your don't see it, it's your view. Thus, I think that views have no power to grasp enlightenment, or to see it in others. As mentioned TNH said, "all views are wrong views".
Say what you think about me here.
Re: Enlightened masters?
If someone calls themselves an "enlightened master", they are most probably no where close to being so.. Hope that helps
Disclaimer: If I have posted about something, then I obviously have no idea what I am talking about!
Re: Enlightened masters?
I can't see why there wouldn't be.dyanaprajna2011 wrote:Are there any enlightened masters today, of any school?
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
Re: Enlightened masters?
We are an unknown and quiet group practicing in East Malaysia.Recently, a newly Enlightened member of our group wrote an article about our Guru.I'm taking an extract of what he wrote about our Guru.
"that firstIy, on the 15th day of 12th Moon in 2012 during an early morning puja, I saw my Master attaining the Rainbow Dharma Body and watch with awe the immense benefits of achieving this level of highest liberation. The seven colors of red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo and violet with each color representing its individual meaning and function that can manifest into countless ways of helping sentient beings so many that I unable to record. There are the main ones which I cannot reveal openly in tantric practice."
"that firstIy, on the 15th day of 12th Moon in 2012 during an early morning puja, I saw my Master attaining the Rainbow Dharma Body and watch with awe the immense benefits of achieving this level of highest liberation. The seven colors of red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo and violet with each color representing its individual meaning and function that can manifest into countless ways of helping sentient beings so many that I unable to record. There are the main ones which I cannot reveal openly in tantric practice."
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Re: Enlightened masters?
Shakyamuni said he was Enlightenedrandomseb wrote:If someone calls themselves an "enlightened master", they are most probably no where close to being so.. Hope that helps
Re: Enlightened masters?
Any chance of you producing evidence for your statement ?randomseb wrote:If someone calls themselves an "enlightened master", they are most probably no where close to being so.. Hope that helps
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Re: Enlightened masters?
Diamond Sutra Chapter 9 I would think. Something along those lines.Simon E. wrote:Any chance of you producing evidence for your statement ?randomseb wrote:If someone calls themselves an "enlightened master", they are most probably no where close to being so.. Hope that helps
http://www.diamond-sutra.com/diamond_su ... page9.html
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
Re: Enlightened masters?
That describes the objective status. It does not address assumed titles. Which may in some instances be assumed for the benefit of others.
Or so it seems to me.
Or so it seems to me.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Re: Enlightened masters?
The 2009 translation of the Surangama Sutra presents the 50 demonic states in such a way as to suggest that they all share the same root: assuming one is accomplished (or asserting that one is accomplished), when one is actually not. This is near to randomseb's comment but precisely the same.
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Re: Enlightened masters?
I took from randomseb's comment the idea that in the west, especially in the United States, we have seen our fill of self-described "Zen Masters" and "enlightened" adepts, who turned out to be profiteers and charlatans. Buy a copy of Shambhala Sun and you'll see ads selling DVDs, seminars and empowerments. I'm still not quite over seeing ads some years ago for Genpo, Wilbur and Bernie posing like the "Three Amigos" selling Big Mind for thousands of $$ a pop.
As Jikan observed, there are some individuals with attainments beyond description. I watch the youtubes of the Kaihigyo monks and have a sense that these men exist and practice in a realm to which I could only aspire. I suspect that in all serious traditions there are men and women who quietly exist in each day in a fully liberated state.
As Jikan observed, there are some individuals with attainments beyond description. I watch the youtubes of the Kaihigyo monks and have a sense that these men exist and practice in a realm to which I could only aspire. I suspect that in all serious traditions there are men and women who quietly exist in each day in a fully liberated state.
Re: Enlightened masters?
I guess the issue for me Jikan, is what about allowing titles that imply accomplishment to those that actually are ?Jikan wrote:The 2009 translation of the Surangama Sutra presents the 50 demonic states in such a way as to suggest that they all share the same root: assuming one is accomplished (or asserting that one is accomplished), when one is actually not. This is near to randomseb's comment but precisely the same.
The default position seems to be that any such appellation is seen to be indicative of falsity, but that seems draconian surely ?
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Re: Enlightened masters?
Surely. I think there's a strong cultural bias among contemporary convert Buddhists against self-promotion. Some of this may be warranted...
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=12188
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=12400
...but at the same time we see few Westerners hesitate to refer to His Holiness the Dalai Lama as His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Which suggests to me that even the most cynical attitudes toward the recognition of mastery has its limits.
I think this will be a sticky issue moving forward regardless. There will be instances in which one person's master will inevitably be another person's megalomaniac. "Sky flowers" in the language of the Surangama...
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=12188
http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=12400
...but at the same time we see few Westerners hesitate to refer to His Holiness the Dalai Lama as His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Which suggests to me that even the most cynical attitudes toward the recognition of mastery has its limits.
I think this will be a sticky issue moving forward regardless. There will be instances in which one person's master will inevitably be another person's megalomaniac. "Sky flowers" in the language of the Surangama...
Re: Enlightened masters?
The word I got is that there is generally only a few actual fully enlightened beings around at any given time, because it actually is very difficult, and most people who think they are enlightened only reached a certain level and stopped, instead of going all the way.. You know.. "Oh wow, this state of being is awesome! This must be it!!"
And so they lose their way
And so they lose their way
Disclaimer: If I have posted about something, then I obviously have no idea what I am talking about!
Re: Enlightened masters?
Shel, 'A Zen master is someone who's had a glimpse of Buddha nature' Is kensho enough to gather students around you and claim you can show them the way? A master would be permanantly established in the awakened state otherwise it's the blind leading the blind.
Re: Enlightened masters?
The Threefold Lotus sutra has a good parable explaining the "temporary abode", where many apparently pitch a tent and settle in
Disclaimer: If I have posted about something, then I obviously have no idea what I am talking about!
- Quiet Heart
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Re: Enlightened masters?
Re: Enlightened Masters.
Before enlightenment:
Drawing water, Chopping Wood.
After enlightenment:
Drawing water, Chopping Wood.
(by which it means ..... there is no change in your life).
(Hint: if you don't understand, look down below at my signature and read that little poem).
Shame on you Shakyamuni for setting the precedent of leaving home.
Did you think it was not there--
in your wife's lovely face
in your baby's laughter?
Did you think you had to go elsewhere (simply) to find it?
from - Judyth Collin
The Layman's Lament
From What Book, 1998, p. 52
Edited by Gary Gach
Did you think it was not there--
in your wife's lovely face
in your baby's laughter?
Did you think you had to go elsewhere (simply) to find it?
from - Judyth Collin
The Layman's Lament
From What Book, 1998, p. 52
Edited by Gary Gach