shine/shamatha techniques
- Johnny Dangerous
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 17094
- Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
- Location: Olympia WA
- Contact:
shine/shamatha techniques
I have seen a ton of different techniques for shamatha in Tibetan Buddhism, I was wondering if/how they differ i the sense of what they achieve, and the benefits of one object over another etc..
I know about forceful shamatha, natural shamatha etc..but I wonder, what is the difference between for example, meditating on an 'A', or focusing on breath, ithan one being visual and one being "inner" Is the choice of object of focus for the most part arbitrary, or are there specific usages and considerations involved? Is it just what works?
I know about forceful shamatha, natural shamatha etc..but I wonder, what is the difference between for example, meditating on an 'A', or focusing on breath, ithan one being visual and one being "inner" Is the choice of object of focus for the most part arbitrary, or are there specific usages and considerations involved? Is it just what works?
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: shine/shamatha techniques
If the practice is the development of śamatha then the purpose is generally to progress through the nine stages of settling the mind to the ninth mental abiding -- setting in equipoise (samādhāna) -- and beyond that to a form realm mind, which is an actual śamatha (either anāgamya or the first dhyāna).Johnny Dangerous wrote:I have seen a ton of different techniques for shamatha in Tibetan Buddhism, I was wondering if/how they differ i the sense of what they achieve, and the benefits of one object over another etc..
Yeah, in Tibetan presentations śamatha is sometimes classified as śamatha with an object or without an object, and the objects of śamatha are classified as outer/inner, impure/pure, etc. Sometimes this is presented as practice stages which progress from external objects (e.g. pebble, stick, buddha statue) to inner objects (e.g. visualized bindu, buddha form) to no object.Johnny Dangerous wrote:I know about forceful shamatha, natural shamatha etc..but I wonder, what is the difference between for example, meditating on an 'A', or focusing on breath, ithan one being visual and one being "inner" Is the choice of object of focus for the most part arbitrary, or are there specific usages and considerations involved? Is it just what works?
- Johnny Dangerous
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 17094
- Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
- Location: Olympia WA
- Contact:
Re: shine/shamatha techniques
I get that stuff, but is the object always kind of secondary to the practice, or are there practices where the object itself serves some kind of function, outside of tantra? I'm just wondering if there is any concrete reason historically that some chose a Tibetan A, some taught certain visualizations as objects etc. I know in the case of winds and channels specific stuff it is obvious. Has Tibetan style Shamatha always been more a loose collection of techniques, or is there something more standardized I may not be aware of?Jnana wrote:If the practice is the development of śamatha then the purpose is generally to progress through the nine stages of settling the mind to the ninth mental abiding -- setting in equipoise (samādhāna) -- and beyond that to a form realm mind, which is an actual śamatha (either anāgamya or the first dhyāna).Johnny Dangerous wrote:I have seen a ton of different techniques for shamatha in Tibetan Buddhism, I was wondering if/how they differ i the sense of what they achieve, and the benefits of one object over another etc..
Yeah, in Tibetan presentations śamatha is sometimes classified as śamatha with an object or without an object, and the objects of śamatha are classified as outer/inner, impure/pure, etc. Sometimes this presented as practice stages which progress from external objects (e.g. pebble, stick, buddha statue) to inner objects (e.g. visualized bindu, buddha form) to no object.Johnny Dangerous wrote:I know about forceful shamatha, natural shamatha etc..but I wonder, what is the difference between for example, meditating on an 'A', or focusing on breath, ithan one being visual and one being "inner" Is the choice of object of focus for the most part arbitrary, or are there specific usages and considerations involved? Is it just what works?
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: shine/shamatha techniques
In a sūtrayāna context a pure object such as a buddha statue or the visualization of a buddha form is beneficial if the practitioner considers the object to have spiritual significance. Gyatrul Rinpoche:Johnny Dangerous wrote:I get that stuff, but is the object always kind of secondary to the practice, or are there practices where the object itself serves some kind of function, outside of tantra?
- There are great benefits in attending to the Buddha's body in this meditative context: by doing so, you store karmic seeds for attaining a Buddha's body yourself.
There are standardized presentations such as in the Lamrim Chenmo and Dakpo Tashi Namgyal's Moonbeams of Mahāmudrā that primarily rely on the detailed systematic presentation in the Śrāvakabhūmi and a few other Indic texts. Moonbeams of Mahāmudrā also includes another section on śamatha based on mahāmudrā tradition.Johnny Dangerous wrote:Has Tibetan style Shamatha always been more a loose collection of techniques, or is there something more standardized I may not be aware of?
I think you'd have to look into the specifics of each Tibetan practice tradition that you have in mind.Johnny Dangerous wrote:I'm just wondering if there is any concrete reason historically that some chose a Tibetan A, some taught certain visualizations as objects etc.
Last edited by Jnana on Tue May 14, 2013 4:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Johnny Dangerous
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 17094
- Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
- Location: Olympia WA
- Contact:
Re: shine/shamatha techniques
Thanks alot Jnana, sounds like I should be headed for Moonbeams of Mahamudra.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: shine/shamatha techniques
My mahamudra teacher is having me do shamata by just stare at a small object a few feet in front of me, and to focus on my diaphragm breathing, concentrating my attention on both at the same time.
In the Surangama Sutra the Buddha talks about how if you "purify" one sensory stream, you "purify" them all.. this to me seems to be the actual goal of this kind of practice, but that's just my theorizing!
In the Surangama Sutra the Buddha talks about how if you "purify" one sensory stream, you "purify" them all.. this to me seems to be the actual goal of this kind of practice, but that's just my theorizing!
Disclaimer: If I have posted about something, then I obviously have no idea what I am talking about!
Re: shine/shamatha techniques
Meditating on A (Tibetan A or even the Ah sound) is Dzogchen preliminary shamatha. It is like meditating on a Buddha statue except more powerful. However I have no text I can point to to back me up.
Basic shamatha - breath meditation
Shravaka/Mahayana - Buddha statue
Tantric shamatha - deity yoga
Dzogchen shamatha - A
Kirt
Basic shamatha - breath meditation
Shravaka/Mahayana - Buddha statue
Tantric shamatha - deity yoga
Dzogchen shamatha - A
Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Re: shine/shamatha techniques
Norbu Rinpoche has said that there are a number of reason why the letter A is used in dzogchen preliminary śamatha: because it is also used in thekirtu wrote:Meditating on A (Tibetan A or even the Ah sound) is Dzogchen preliminary shamatha. It is like meditating on a Buddha statue except more powerful. However I have no text I can point to to back me up.
Basic shamatha - breath meditation
Shravaka/Mahayana - Buddha statue
Tantric shamatha - deity yoga
Dzogchen shamatha - A
night practice, in phowa and other practices, and because it's the principal symbol of the natural state.
Re: shine/shamatha techniques
I assume this is based on a Dzogchen teaching or text? I am finding a lot of "our way is the best way!" and "our guy is the best guy!" in buddhism, like in every other religionskirtu wrote:Meditating on A (Tibetan A or even the Ah sound) is Dzogchen preliminary shamatha. It is like meditating on a Buddha statue except more powerful. However I have no text I can point to to back me up.
Basic shamatha - breath meditation
Shravaka/Mahayana - Buddha statue
Tantric shamatha - deity yoga
Dzogchen shamatha - A
Kirt
The Surangama sutra says something like sound is the best thing to focus on, not objects of vision or mentation, but that's probably a preference of the author too hehe
Disclaimer: If I have posted about something, then I obviously have no idea what I am talking about!
Re: shine/shamatha techniques
Where does Mahamudra fit into this little hierarchy? Hmmmmmm...???kirtu wrote:Meditating on A (Tibetan A or even the Ah sound) is Dzogchen preliminary shamatha. It is like meditating on a Buddha statue except more powerful. However I have no text I can point to to back me up.
Basic shamatha - breath meditation
Shravaka/Mahayana - Buddha statue
Tantric shamatha - deity yoga
Dzogchen shamatha - A
Kirt
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
- Johnny Dangerous
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 17094
- Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
- Location: Olympia WA
- Contact:
Re: shine/shamatha techniques
gregkavarnos wrote:Where does Mahamudra fit into this little hierarchy? Hmmmmmm...???kirtu wrote:Meditating on A (Tibetan A or even the Ah sound) is Dzogchen preliminary shamatha. It is like meditating on a Buddha statue except more powerful. However I have no text I can point to to back me up.
Basic shamatha - breath meditation
Shravaka/Mahayana - Buddha statue
Tantric shamatha - deity yoga
Dzogchen shamatha - A
Kirt
On that note,. I really don't understand how Mahamuidra and Dzogchen shamatha are different, how is trekcho different from natural shamatha?
I've read so many books also equating the two, any differences mentioned seem so semantic.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: shine/shamatha techniques
There are a couple of good books by Tsoknyi Rinpoche which clarify this...'Ground, Path and Frution' is the best one IMO.
s.
Re: shine/shamatha techniques
Śamatha as a preliminary practice is considered preliminary in both mahāmudrā and dzogchen. That is, it isn't the same thing as recognition of the natural state, where śamatha and vipaśyāna are innate. Therefore, trekcho includes vipaśyāna.Johnny Dangerous wrote:On that note,. I really don't understand how Mahamuidra and Dzogchen shamatha are different, how is trekcho different from natural shamatha?
It depends on who you ask, and which tradition you follow.Johnny Dangerous wrote:I've read so many books also equating the two, any differences mentioned seem so semantic.
- Johnny Dangerous
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 17094
- Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
- Location: Olympia WA
- Contact:
Re: shine/shamatha techniques
Jnana wrote:Śamatha as a preliminary practice is considered preliminary in both mahāmudrā and dzogchen. That is, it isn't the same thing as recognition of the natural state, where śamatha and vipaśyāna are innate. Therefore, trekcho includes vipaśyāna.Johnny Dangerous wrote:On that note,. I really don't understand how Mahamuidra and Dzogchen shamatha are different, how is trekcho different from natural shamatha?
It depends on who you ask, and which tradition you follow.Johnny Dangerous wrote:I've read so many books also equating the two, any differences mentioned seem so semantic.
Doesn't natural Shamatha also include vipasyana-like experience though?
Anyway, I remain just as confused, but it's undeniable you guys gave me some great answers to think about, thanks.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: shine/shamatha techniques
Where are you getting the translation "natural shamatha" from?Johnny Dangerous wrote:Doesn't natural Shamatha also include vipasyana-like experience though?
- Johnny Dangerous
- Global Moderator
- Posts: 17094
- Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
- Location: Olympia WA
- Contact:
Re: shine/shamatha techniques
Jnana wrote:Where are you getting the translation "natural shamatha" from?Johnny Dangerous wrote:Doesn't natural Shamatha also include vipasyana-like experience though?
I don't remember for certain, I think one of Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoches books uses it, but i've read it, or something similar a few different places I believe.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: shine/shamatha techniques
I think Bon uses the terms effortful śamatha, natural śamatha, and ultimate śamatha. But that's about all I know about it.Johnny Dangerous wrote:I don't remember for certain, I think one of Tenzin Wangyals books uses it, but i've read it, or something similar a number of places.
-
- Posts: 106
- Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:06 am
Re: shine/shamatha techniques
"I get that stuff, but is the object always kind of secondary to the practice, or are there practices where the object itself serves some kind of function, outside of tantra? I'm just wondering if there is any concrete reason historically that some chose a Tibetan A, some taught certain visualizations as objects etc. I know in the case of winds and channels specific stuff it is obvious. Has Tibetan style Shamatha always been more a loose collection of techniques, or is there something more standardized I may not be aware of?"
External objects come first, then the natural progression is an internal object like the breath. It depends how fortunate you are (low, middling, or high intellect) where it's best for you to start.
The goal is to combine Vipassana practice with Shamatha practice. You can't engage in Vipassana practice (awareness) if you require an external object for meditation.
So when engaging on an internal object of meditation there is only a small amount of attention on it, the rest is Vipassana. So basically if you're using the breath as an object then the breath should be in your background, maybe 20% of your attention. Otherwise one will start to control one's breathing. The goal of Shamatha practice is Vipassana practice but there's not one without the other.
It's easy to get hung up on terms and what other schools do but it doesn't matter.
Once you find the meaning engage the practice.
Follow the school you most relate with and don't get distracted.
External objects come first, then the natural progression is an internal object like the breath. It depends how fortunate you are (low, middling, or high intellect) where it's best for you to start.
The goal is to combine Vipassana practice with Shamatha practice. You can't engage in Vipassana practice (awareness) if you require an external object for meditation.
So when engaging on an internal object of meditation there is only a small amount of attention on it, the rest is Vipassana. So basically if you're using the breath as an object then the breath should be in your background, maybe 20% of your attention. Otherwise one will start to control one's breathing. The goal of Shamatha practice is Vipassana practice but there's not one without the other.
It's easy to get hung up on terms and what other schools do but it doesn't matter.
Once you find the meaning engage the practice.
Follow the school you most relate with and don't get distracted.