Norbu House & Domo Geshe Rinpoche

User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21908
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Norbu House & Domo Geshe Rinpoche

Post by Grigoris »

Pema Rigdzin wrote:Spot, the reason for concern is that Vajrayana is a very powerful and swift path, and its karmic weightiness reflects that power. One can be profoundly led astray by a false teacher on the path of Vajrayana and one's path ruined for this and many lifetimes. Even in an ordinary sense, if someone came to a have a lot of trust in this woman and open up to her and consider her their guru, and she was then to shatter that trust, it may well shatter their ability to trust in the authenticity of the Vajrayana path and certainly in any sort of spiritual guide after that.
Indeed! Angulimala, for example, also had immense faith and trust in his original guru, "luckily" for him the Buddha came along and showed him the true path to liberation!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Schrödinger’s Yidam
Posts: 7885
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Norbu House & Domo Geshe Rinpoche

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

When you took Vajrayana empowerment, among the many pledges and commitments you made were Fourteen root vows, the transgression of which constitutes a tantric downfall: The downfalls are:....14,Criticizing women.
I think that in its entirety rule #14 reads something like; "Disparaging women as being inferior".

:rules:
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
User avatar
spot dawa
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:14 am
Location: Arizona

Re: Norbu House & Domo Geshe Rinpoche

Post by spot dawa »

As a student of Buddhism for many years, I can appreciate the perspective presented here on the importance of lineage and preservation of the Tulku lineages. Since I began participating in this thread, however, I have come across some new and intriguing facts regarding the phenomena of "transmission."

In the Hindu traditions of the Naga Baba's, renunciate yogis of India, it seems that what is being described by American Baba Rampuri in his book Autobiography of Sadhu is a kind of actual possession of disciples by the consciousness/spirit of their guru, and by the spirit of "Baba" who he says "is not a man." He further states in public talks that there are many different types of spirits being transmitted through the clans of Naga Babas. The process of initiation, devotion, and discipline of the disciple is seen therefore as preparing the ground for the entrance of this retinue of realized consciousness, which is continuously in human form as a result.

I know that this is not a Hindu board; however it strikes me that what happened to Rampuri in the case of his being possessed by his guru after his death -- without his full understanding of the reality of this process, as such things can sound like devotional ether when being discussed -- could this process not be similar to the one experienced by Tara aka Domo Geshe? Tara apparently sells Tibetan jewelry to support her work, so clearly she isn't claiming to be Domo Geshe and only Domo Geshe, just as Rampuri had to come to grips with what had happened to him after the fact of that experience; his guru was inside him, had become part of him, but had not erased him.

I understand also the importance of relying on tradition and teaching; this theory does not fit into the concept of Tulku lineages; but if it is a real thing that happens, seems good to know that in light of cases like this one. If Domo Geshe Rinpoche is enough of a yogi to pull this off, how does that shine light on any personal aversion to Tara's claims? Do you want to dissociate from that link to your own traditions, because of your aversion to the idea?

For me, this is all just food for thought, and I hope it is for others as well.
JKhedrup
Posts: 2328
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am

Re: Norbu House & Domo Geshe Rinpoche

Post by JKhedrup »

If Domo Geshe Rinpoche is enough of a yogi to pull this off, how does that shine light on any personal aversion to Tara's claims? Do you want to dissociate from that link to your own traditions, because of your aversion to the idea?
I cannot say that the previous Domo Geshe Rinpoche was not highly attained enough to manage that. But I don't think it is relevant to Tara's claims. This is because no qualified master aside from herself has authenticated them, while qualified masters have authenticated the other tulkus.

It is not the idea itself that I have the aversion to but Tara's behaviour as I have seen in her videos and heard from her students. I have been approached via email from 2 people connected with her who doubt her claims simply because her behaviour with her students is not very compassionate. I also have heard enough Westerners faking Tibetan accents during my years in idea to recognized affected mispronunciations when I hear them. And, I have never heard Tara speak Tibetan, which, if she really has "downloaded" the consciousness of Domo Geshe, she should be able to do perfectly. (Of course it wouldn't be a perfect indication, but it would be moving in the right direction).

To be honest I am surprised at how people are prepared to accept her claims at face value, but maybe she has a charisma that I just don't connect with and others do.
User avatar
spot dawa
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:14 am
Location: Arizona

Re: Norbu House & Domo Geshe Rinpoche

Post by spot dawa »

JKhedrup wrote:It is not the idea itself that I have the aversion to but Tara's behaviour as I have seen in her videos and heard from her students. I have been approached via email from 2 people connected with her who doubt her claims simply because her behaviour with her students is not very compassionate. I also have heard enough Westerners faking Tibetan accents during my years in idea to recognized affected mispronunciations when I hear them. And, I have never heard Tara speak Tibetan, which, if she really has "downloaded" the consciousness of Domo Geshe, she should be able to do perfectly. (Of course it wouldn't be a perfect indication, but it would be moving in the right direction).

To be honest I am surprised at how people are prepared to accept her claims at face value, but maybe she has a charisma that I just don't connect with and others do.
Thanks JKhedrup. I think these observations of personal behavior are indeed bad indicators. As I recall however, bad behavior is not absent in the behavior of saints or arhants or bodhisattvas or even tulkus! Now I personally was turned off by the photograph on her book cover; her smirkish smile told me volumes about the difficulties I would have if I met her personally and attempted to interact with her. That I find troubling, but only mildly so.

I do not in fact take her claims at any value at all. I suppose some reading this thread will suspect me of being her shill, but I wouldn't recommend anyone take personal teachings from her much less ordination or discipleship. I don't recall ever being asked for my opinion from anyone taking a guru before though so....

The one redeeming feature that I can say of her is that her book touched me rather profoundly as Dharma books go. For that I am grateful to her. Have I been mislead by her? I doubt it, since I read many books I do not agree with and do not fear being misled by them. Reading that book led me into new territory in my capacity for renunciation based on a clearer view of emptiness. Some of her comments seemed to be "fillers" but in fact she was following Chandrakirti's Twenty Emptinesses pretty closely. I don't know, but I don't think the authenticity of her lineage or the absolute truth of her words has ever been a criterion of mine, not for her, not for anybody.

The Sadhu Rampuri who described his experience of receiving the transmission of, or being possessed by, the consciousness of his teacher -- and a whole retinue of gurus, speaking of lineage -- still retained his own personality and basic sense of control over his mind and body. I do not know that he became fluent in the languages (many) that his guru had mastered. I do not know enough about his apparently real phenomenon to say that this is a qualifying test of the authenticity of the transmission. Perhaps, very likely, it is something much more subtle than that which unfolds over time.

If something like that had happened to me, I suppose I would be in the same boat that she seems to be in. So, you're still controlled by kleshas; but you have this spiritual master in your mind with you; I don't think the guru is interested in being returned to sender; checkmate! Go crazy girl and do whatever your guru tells you to, that's what you signed up for. Apparently!
JKhedrup
Posts: 2328
Joined: Wed May 30, 2012 8:28 am

Re: Norbu House & Domo Geshe Rinpoche

Post by JKhedrup »

Spot Dawa,

Your approach seems very sane, and of course I leave room for the possibility that some of her teachings are good. Sorry if my above tone seemed judgemental of you, it wasn't my intention.

:namaste: Khedrup
User avatar
spot dawa
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:14 am
Location: Arizona

Re: Norbu House & Domo Geshe Rinpoche

Post by spot dawa »

JKhedrup wrote: Sorry if my above tone seemed judgemental of you, it wasn't my intention.

:namaste: Khedrup
Not at all, Khedrup! We do miss a lot in terms of verbal tone and body language attempting to be gracious through this medium. I did not pick up any personal judgment or animosity from you, nor was I projecting any defensiveness intentionally through my remarks.

On the contrary, I considered leaving my interest in this Hindu tradition off this board entirely because I understand the feeling of wishing to defend the Dharma, and to defend others on the path from bad influences and incorrect views. That is what I have picked up from you here, which seems to me more loving than judgmental. I decided to include it, partly just because it is so new to me and so compelling in many ways. My sincere apologies if it has disturbed anyone's well-placed faith in Buddhadharma.

I am happy to have elicited the response from someone here that her teachings may not be 100 percent mistaken; that little bit of generosity is all I was after on your behalf. So I've had my say on this thread. Also, this thread is what brought me to this board, so I will sign off now and wish all of you the best here on Dharma Wheel.

True Dharma is active, not descriptive; to be experienced directly, not merely intellectually. Namaste
User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
Posts: 6965
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Norbu House & Domo Geshe Rinpoche

Post by kirtu »

spot dawa wrote:As I recall however, bad behavior is not absent in the behavior of saints or arhants or bodhisattvas or even tulkus!
Most tulkus are not on the bhumis and are reborn karmically. Some are true Bodhisattvas reborn strictly from the force of Bodhicitta. The higher tulkus are real Bodhisattvas on the bhumsi.

You will never see bad behavior in an Arhant/Arhat. Never. They may display behavior that is not polite but it is never immoral or sketchy in any sense. Truly impolite behavior in an Arhat is also probably not possible as long as they suspect that it is impolite. If they know that the behavior is impolite in a particular culture then that won't happen either. But bad behavior, immoral behavior you will never see in an Arhat. They are incapable of this.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

"Most all-knowing Mañjuśrī, ...
Please illuminate the radiant wisdom spirit
Of my precious Buddha nature."
HH Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Truth Seeker
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:36 pm

Re: Norbu House & Domo Geshe Rinpoche

Post by Truth Seeker »

So much of this thread is conjecture. I always felt a weakness of the internet threads on this woman was how few people speaking on them had ever met her. And therefore claims that she was deliberately deceiving people for money, fame, power, etc - these were nothing more than educated guesses.

I spent the last 14 years of my life as a student of hers. From the very first few months when she began public teachings in 2001, up until earlier this year. I was a monk with her most of that time. Truthfully, stories like my own are what I feel is missing from these threads. Not so much to help people who are outside her fold - most people outside her group have no trouble concluding her claims are false. It is the people who are in her organization that need a higher quality of critique - because the doubts they have only came after time, after they became deeply involved in some cases, making the idea of leaving feel very difficult and loaded. They need to hear from fellow (ex)members - people who made an informed choice not to follow her, based on observation of her - to help them in their decision to stay or go.

There is so much I could say, it's hard to know where to start. To begin, the implications made by a couple people that Ven Lozang Gyaltsen was being deceitful in how he presented himself - using a false name, etc - were completely baseless. He is not a student of Tara's (he was ordained by a different Gelug lama), but he did attend a weeklong retreat with her in 2008. As you can tell, he still considers himself a friend of her and her organization. I consider him a personal friend. Let's leave behind this black-and-white thinking that because he believes in her there must be something wrong with him or his credentials, or that he harbors ulterior motives. This unnecessary combativeness just weakens the otherwise valid parts of the arguments here.

I met her when I was 17, and became a monk with her just over a year after that. In retrospect, I recognized a common trait between the young me and the vast majority of the students she's had over the years. Almost all of us had little-to-no experience with Tibetan Buddhism - and particularly Tibetan lamas - when we met her. So we didn't know what a normal Tibetan lama was like.

She does know a lot about Tibetan Buddhism - but her claims to great scholarship are hard to swallow, since she rarely displays much familiarity with the finer points of traditional Buddhist philosophy. She much more often teaches "creatively for the Western mind," using new analogies (which are admittedly well thought of) and touching on Buddhist concepts in a broader conceptual way. She had been a practitioner of Tibetan Buddhism for 30 years before the Tibetan Domo Geshe Rinpoche passed away, and before the "transference" occurred. I didn't see any knowledge or concepts from her over the years that couldn't have plausibly been gained from 30 years of study and practice. Especially because many of the concepts she described as secret or the highest concepts of Tibetan Buddhism - and therefore not something we could verify in any Buddhist books! - in retrospect were usually New Agey.

(For (ex)students of hers I submit for consideration her teachings on actual being / inner being / practitioner being, mandala matrix, higher principle, etheric grid, world grid, etc. Even though she created them, her own usage of these concepts was imprecise and occasionally contradictory over time. And whenever asked a question about them she didn't want to answer, she could always say "You're not ready to hear that yet - just keep doing your practice.")

In the first year of studying with her, she moved things along quickly. In the first series of teachings I attended with her, halfway through she gave an empowerment into the unique meditation practice she created, without any warning. She just said "Make sure to be here next week, it's very important." I would later learn it was supposedly a highest yoga tantric practice...yet there was no explanation of what the bodhisattva or tantric vows or the commitment to the meditation would be - just make sure to be there! (Because she always knew what was best for us anyway, right? Why let our samsaric mind get in the way?)

In the next several months I showed myself to be a devoted student, and she began to call me her spiritual son in our email communications. :oops: I sure liked hearing that - and had no idea what an inappropriate thing it was for her to say in the position of power she held.

Those same emails were signed by her simply as "Guru." Especially in the early years, she constantly used the term Guru in relationship to herself. If I had known anything about what a healthy teacher was like, that would have been yet another red flag. And not just Guru. She explained how she could grow out her hair in violation of the monastic rules because she was a mahasiddha - a name she used for herself many more times over the years. In addition, she talked about being the reincarnation of some of the most seminal enlightened figures of Buddhist history in India and Tibet - Shariputra, Thönmi Sambhota, Milarepa, Dromtönpa, Khedrubje. This latter claim is a recorded part of the Domo Geshe lineage. However, I doubt the actual Domo Geshe Rinpoche's ever spoke about it the way she did.

At other times, she said Pabongkha Rinpoche was speaking through her. At one time, it was even Je Tsongkhapa himself.

Have you head the Tibetan expression that if someone tells you they're your guru, you should run the other way? I wish I'd heard this before meeting her. Recently listening back to one of the first teachings I heard from her (from September 25, 2001), she said the following - making it clear people should take the "marvelous opportunity" to study with her and not delay:

"Should a grand Guru come up to you and say, 'I think that you have qualities and I want to teach you everything I know. Would you please by my student?' and he places his hand on your hand and you fall down. And you say, 'This is the most marvelous opportunity that I have ever come across. I must grab it.' Every student that I’ve ever had has thought that way. 'This is the most marvelous opportunity and I’m not going to let it pass by.'

However, in my American body I have come across those who have said (affects a whiny voice), 'Ehhhhh, I don’t know… I’m gonna think about it and see where these things go. I’m gonna look at it… Ehhhhh, well if you wanna tell me something, OK. But don’t go on too long because I’ve only got 15 or 20 minutes.' ...

In that way, I’m OK. Whatever. I learned that from Americans - "whatever." And I can say it perfectly - whatever. And do I mean it? No, I don’t mean it. Because I truly love you all more than you love yourselves.”

How about that last line? She always viewed things relationally. That one did become a red flag for me over time - the apparent emotional dependence she had on her students. One way it manifested itself was in things like the above. As part of her inner circle of students, it became clear over the years she wanted us to spend the holidays with her, rather than with our families. (I can only imagine because we were the only family she had). Years later, when I visited her at her new home in Central Wisconsin, she literally said, "You don't come up here very often. Don't you love your Guru?"

Another example of this was in how quickly she ordained people who requested to be a monk with her in the early years. Her first monk was ordained within 24 hours of the first time they asked! Another was ordained within a week. And when they did, they were told they needed to move to California, to live closely with her so she could properly train them.

Throughout my time with her she emphasized how she cared for her students. She cared for us in particular on the "inside," by sending blessings and enlightened attention and guidance to us. This is one thing that kept me in it so long - I was afraid for the future of my spiritual well-being without receiving her "inner care."

This inner communication / inner vision of her students also came out in her frequently saying things to myself and other students about how we were doing on the inside. This mostly happened on retreats or when she was staying at our monastery. She'd say something like, "You seem distressed inside" or "You had disturbing dreams last night." This was in front of other students, by the way. And I'd have no idea what she was talking about - but just chalked it up to not being sufficiently in touch with my deeper layers. Having talked to other people who've left since, they describe many times she was off-base in the unsolicited statements she'd make about their inner mental states.

All this is connected to another unique aspect of her approach. She gave what she called "inner guru" transmission to her students when they received the meditation practice she gave. She described this as an extremely rare and secret transmission that in Tibet was only given to the highest Lamas. Why would she give this to beginners when it was only given to the highest yogis and practitioners in Tibet? She said Westerners didn't have as much time to meditate and therefore needed stronger methods to help them achieve enlightenment. This is someone who was supposed to have been a Lama of 65 years in their past life - and an enlightened Guru for lifetimes before that (she claimed 35,000 years in 2003). This person was giving not only highest yoga tantra empowerments, but this even higher "inner guru" transmission, to beginners who often had no previous Buddhist practice!

Yet she would often congratulate herself during her public teachings on how well this approach was working. About a year after she started teaching she shared with her inner circle that one of her students was enlightened. And soon after, she said the same thing at a public teaching - except that now it was more than one! If you know anything at all about the Tibetan tradition, you'll know how incredible a claim that is. Of course, we didn't. Neither of those students is still with her. As far as I know she continues saying how well her approach is working, despite how many students have left over the years, and how small her group continues to be.

I gave back the monk's vows about a year before formally releasing her as my teacher. For years before then, I knew I didn't want to remain a monk. It didn't feel authentic anymore. Why did I carry on so long as a monk with her? There was clear pressure from her not to disrobe. To that point in time, she had 10 other students ordain as monks or nuns with her - 6 of whom had given back the vows. I'd seen how unhappy and upset she'd been with them.

She told us that once given back, the vows couldn't be taken again. This was a strange position to hold, since it is found nowhere in the vinaya - the Buddha himself said monks could give back and retake the vows 7 times! Ven Lozang shared with me that when his teacher ordained him, he said "If this ever doesn't feel like the right path for you, you can release the vows. Don't keep them for anyone else's sake." What a different message than what my teacher was saying! I could write several chapters in a book on all the ways she modeled and facilitated a culture of codependence.

Ultimately, I hesitated to give them back because she said the main difference between her ordained and lay students was how much inner care she offered them. I.e. her ordained students received more inner blessings so they could reach enlightenment faster. This was one of her unique interpretations of what it meant to be a monk, and again, it made me hesitate in what I wanted to do out of concern for my inner spiritual well-being. In her model, giving up being a monk was a very fatalistic thing. Luckily, I finally had the courage to follow my own intuition - something which had to be suppressed during my time with her - and have gradually found my way all the way out over the past year.

Is she in it for fame, money or power? I lived with her in California and briefly after she moved to her place now in Central Wisconsin, and have been there many times since. If she has many expensive possessions, I haven't seen them. As far as I can tell she believes her claims to be Domo Geshe Rinpoche, so it isn't deceit. Fame or power, I can't speak to.

Several people have left over her continual fundraising efforts and asks for money. These are all apparently for expansion at her retreat center. It seems to always be in need of new expansions each year or so, and so the calls for money don't settle down. Since I haven't seen her personal finances, I can't verify how the money raised is being used, but can say the expansions she's fundraised for in the past have happened.

Are her claims to be Domo Geshe Rinpoche true? She has not been recognized by any Tibetan lama, although in 2002/2003 she travelled to India to get an appointment with His Holiness the Dalai Lama. She never got a meeting, and so she changed tactics and met with administrators and personal friends of Tharpa Choling outside Darjeeling - monastery of the previous Domo Geshe Rinpoche. These included people who knew Domo Geshe Rinpoche personally, and they didn't accept her claims. One of them asked for the names of his (Domo Geshe Rinpoche's) parents. She couldn't answer. Nor could she speak in Tibetan with any of them, even though before she left on this trip she told her students she was practicing her Tibetan to be ready to speak with all these people! Oops. At that point the story became that the Tibetan's ability to speak Tibetan had to be "put away" during the arisal into this new life, so that he could master English and thus teach Westerners.

In 2008 another opportunity for recognition arose. As a result of effort made by her students, she got connected with Namkha Rinpoche. He said she was "who she said she was" - but didn't go so far as to recognize her. He tried to help her get an appointment with HHDL (but it never happened). There was one weekend retreat where he taught and she sat to his side. That was an interesting experience. He made a statement at one point that students needed to speak up to their teacher, to say when they’re doing something wrong - explicitly saying we needed to this with her. She literally rolled her eyes. Clearly she didn’t agree. (Again - students are unenlightened and confused - the guru knows best!) He also made it clear he was giving her the initiation as well - because she needed it. After changing bodies, she’d need to receive all her empowerments again. Clearly she didn’t agree. After not getting an appointment with HHDL, things began to fizzle, and she stopped making effort to stay connected with Namkha Rinpoche.

What makes this a really interesting case - what gives it all these shades of grey - is that she has some genuine spiritual insight and realization. What the source of it is, I can't say. But she clearly is a gifted teacher, and has some amount of insight in her personal work with students. This is undoubtedly why I stayed with her and why other people continue with her - along with our lack of experience with Tibetan Buddhism when we met her and got hooked. I'm just sorry to see the dependence she cultivates - no matter how many times she says she doesn't do it, she does - and the damaging and hurtful effect it has on students.
Truth Seeker
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:36 pm

Re: Norbu House & Domo Geshe Rinpoche

Post by Truth Seeker »

Reading back what I posted, the first paragraph came off sounding more dismissive of others, and full of myself, than I intended. Sorry about that.
Truth Seeker
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:36 pm

Re: Norbu House & Domo Geshe Rinpoche

Post by Truth Seeker »

To offer another example from her own teachings, at the beginning of every talk she has students recite the following Refuge Prayer. She describes it as her "meaning translation" of the standard formula:

In order to obtain perfect enlightenment, I vow from now on to go for refuge to the Guru and Three Precious Gems, and not abandon sentient beings. I will practice the six perfections.

The original Tibetan prayer names the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha individually - they are the heart of the prayer. She condensed those down to 3 Precious Gems, placed the Guru in front of all of them, and added in taking a vow. As you can imagine, that turned away a lot of people over the years, who had no interest in taking a vow with someone they were just meeting!

Sometimes she would explain "Guru" as meaning the larger principle of guidance toward enlightenment, not intended to mean a single individual. First, as lofty as that sounds, the whole room was still bowing toward her while they were saying this. And second, she didn't actually support that perspective. She wasn't comfortable with students studying with other teachers while they were with her. She often became upset when a student wanted to go to a teaching other than hers or do retreats with other communities.

This was emblematic of her pattern - absolving herself by explaining something away, rather than not doing it in the first place.

Another translation she did of the refuge prayer early on, and which still shows up on some of her sadhanas, similarly invites a cult-like mentality:

With discrimination, I go for refuge, seeking freedom. I offer all that I was, am and will be for the precious state of enlightenment.
User avatar
Konchog1
Posts: 1673
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:30 am

Re: Norbu House & Domo Geshe Rinpoche

Post by Konchog1 »

Thank you so much for sharing.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
Truth Seeker
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:36 pm

Re: Norbu House & Domo Geshe Rinpoche

Post by Truth Seeker »

spot dawa wrote:Tara apparently sells Tibetan jewelry to support her work, so clearly she isn't claiming to be Domo Geshe and only Domo Geshe, just as Rampuri had to come to grips with what had happened to him after the fact of that experience; his guru was inside him, had become part of him, but had not erased him.
Hello Spot,

I hope I'm not being obnoxious with the multiple postings lately. I just noticed your message and wanted to reply to the misunderstanding quoted above.

She claims to be Domo Geshe Rinpoche 100%. She explained the transition as follows. For the first year or so, the consciousness of the American woman and the consciousness of the Rinpoche inhabited the body together. The American helped the Tibetan come along in his understanding of English and how to work with Western students. Then the mind of the American woman left to a Pure Land and since then it has only been the consciousness of Domo Geshe Rinpoche.

Trivia: For that first year (2001-2002) she spelled the name with a "t" - Tomo Geshe Rinpoche. At the summer retreat in 2002, the packets we received listed her name as Domo Geshe Rinpoche. When a student asked about the spelling change, she said she used "Tomo" the first year because she thought that might keep what she was doing incognito. As if the Dungkar Gompa Society wouldn't notice she'd assumed the identity of their passed teacher if she spelled his name "Tomo Geshe Rinpoche" instead of "Domo Geshe Rinpoche."

As you can imagine, recalling some of these statements now, I feel really dumb for going along with them.

Going back to your question, her legal name is Tara Wangchuk. I could only speculate why she uses that name for her jewelry. Perhaps she thought it would be considered too worldly an activity for a Tibetan Buddhist lama to be doing, so she took advantage of the fact that she had a separate legal name available as a pseudonym. Who knows. Students only refer to her as Rinpoche, and all of her books, teachings, public appearances, etc are done solely under the name of Domo Geshe Rinpoche.

In fact, her organization recently moved to using the name DGR like branding - flyers and more recent YouTube videos say "A Domo Geshe Rinpoche event" or "A Domo Geshe Rinpoche teaching." They even trademarked "Domo Geshe Rinpoche," which is in line with their use of that name as branding. Perhaps they are preparing for possible legal fights in the future. Earliest recorded use is one of the only things you need to establish the validity of your claim to a trademark in the US. (Since our laws don't recognize reincarnation, after all, they can't do anything about her using the name DGR without being recognized by other lamas).
Truth Seeker
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:36 pm

Re: Norbu House & Domo Geshe Rinpoche

Post by Truth Seeker »

I hadn't thought about this much since my last post. Recently, however, by chance I got back in touch with another former member of Tara's group, who was there at the beginning of her teaching career, for many of the same experiences I had with her. We've put together a website that points out the most glaring issues with her claim to be Domo Geshe Rinpoche.

It can be viewed at http://www.domogeshetruth.com, for anyone who wishes to delve further into her story.
Harold Musetescu
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:43 pm

Re: Norbu House & Domo Geshe Rinpoche

Post by Harold Musetescu »

Thank you Truth Seeker for the courage to tell your story.

Some many people have had bad experiences with their lamas and they end up just sitting in silence with their abuse.

Could you give us an update about your story and reaching out to help ex members of this cult.

Thank you again for being a voice in the wilderness.
:namaste:
Truth Seeker
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:36 pm

Re: Norbu House & Domo Geshe Rinpoche

Post by Truth Seeker »

Thanks for the encouraging words. I don't know that there's much in the way of updates.

I expanded http://www.domogeshetruth.com a bit this year. Now the pages include photos - both to make it more interesting to readers, and to provide further evidence that I'm not making this stuff up. I included more forensic-type stuff like actual newspaper articles on Tara from the late 90's before she started her guru schtick. And the site is multilingual now. Someone from Germany reached out to me a few months ago. His family has been affected by Tara (as she travels there once a year and has maybe 50 students there) and he found the site extremely helpful. He provided quite a bit of help and encouragement to get it translated into German.

Since it's been up for more than a year, its position on Google has finally raised higher as well, making it easier to find for people wondering about her. That was really the whole point. I remember how much I Googled her name when I first came across her, and how much it would have helped to find a resource providing a critical perspective. It's very gratifying to know one exists now.

Every few months I'll hear from someone I knew in the group, who's also left. And very occasionally I'll hear from someone still in the group considering leaving, asking my perspective. But that's the extent of it. These days I just live my life. I'm finally becoming more comfortable in my own skin, post-monastic life - more clear on my goals, what I want out of life, and the new personal values that inform that.

I still have dreams involving Tara and her group. One of the things she does is to encourage her students to have dreams with her - she says it's a natural part of taking empowerment with her and taking her on as a guru. It's part of her whole metaphysical presentation - where being a student means that the deepest levels of your mind are connected with her mind all the time. (Mind you - this is from the very beginning of your spiritual relationship with her!) She can read your mind, is always in your subconscious teaching you lessons, etc. It's interesting how my subconscious still goes to those dreams. The most frequent one is where I'm on retreat with her and her group. Even up to a few months ago, I'd be wearing robes in these dreams. When I'd realize I was dressed as a monk, despite not being one anymore - despite not even being in her group anymore - I'd think why do I keep wearing these?

That's not the case any more. Now, if I find myself in a dream with her group, I'm dressed like myself. And I immediately leave. And that feels good.
jkarlins
Posts: 561
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:58 am
Location: Amesbury, MA USA

Re: Norbu House & Domo Geshe Rinpoche

Post by jkarlins »

As Trump would say, "sad."

Luckily there are good teachers out there.
Truth Seeker
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:36 pm

Re: Norbu House & Domo Geshe Rinpoche

Post by Truth Seeker »

There is one other thing that comes to mind. You asked about me being in touch with other members, etc.

Ven Lozang Gyaltsen, who posted a few years ago in this thread in defense of Tara, is a friend of mine and we've stayed in touch over the years. He changed his mind about her as well. He reached out to me a couple years ago and we had a good talk. At the time he helped reassure me that I had nothing to worry about in terms of breaking samaya, releasing monk's vows, etc, because she is not a real teacher.

I won't go into details about what changed his mind, because that's his story to tell. But the cliff notes are that it was a bizarre incident where she showed paranoia and suspicion toward genuine Tibetan lamas, who she thought were trying to psychically harm her. I was weirded out by it at the time as well. But it wasn't the first time she demonstrated that belief.
Harold Musetescu
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:43 pm

Re: Norbu House & Domo Geshe Rinpoche

Post by Harold Musetescu »

Hello Truth Seeker

Any updates on Tara aka Domo Geshe Rinpoche?
The Recused One
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:56 pm

Re: Norbu House & Domo Geshe Rinpoche

Post by The Recused One »

Apart from the mostly stated theoretical doubt concerning her legitimacy I would like to tell a story that has actually taken place. A story about a former lawyer from Oldenburg, Germany.

Let me call this man K. He had joined the Domo Geshe Rinpoche cult in May, 2015. Before he did, he was in another buddhist local group called „Diamondway“. Due to his psychotic disease he caused a lot of trouble there. As he refused to comply the advice of his psychiatrists – taking his prescribed medication and abstaining from too intensive meditation practices – he had to leave the group.

By the help of another medical doctor, a leading member of the German Domo Geshe Rinpoche sangha, K. was introduced to her and got addicted to her teachings instantly. Only one week later he made an attempt to make his little daughter (at that time just six years old) attracted to his new teacher. He told her that he has been healed by Domo Geshe Rinpoche by giving him armlaces she had prayed into. The girl was very confused when she came home and I had the chance to witness her report.

K. was not allowed to see his daughter without the company of a social worker because previously he had gone through several psychotic episodes of extreme violence against himself and others. Twice, his daughter´s life was in serious danger when she had to witness his psychotic episodes. She told her mother after the second experience in Oct 2014, that she never wanted to see her father again because she realised her father to create delusional misjudgments about her. He saw somebody else in her – an experience of existential threat to a five-year-old girl. Also he attempted suicide by jumping off his third floor balcony, only one hour after he had met her.

Of course, he steadily tried to hide all this from the mother and the youth welfare officials. He lied, manipulated and cheated. But step by step the truth came to light. One of his episodes had been reported in the local news after a Diamondway Festival in southern Germany. The report says, that the man attacked five children, two cyclists and – after the police had been alarmed – several policemen. After he had kicked a motor-cyclist from his bike he began to fight the motorbike – an obvious sign of delusional misjudgement.

The medical doctor and leading DGR sangha member has been aware of all this when he offered therapy to him. He knew that taking the prescribed medication and abstaining from meditation was crucial to preventing further psychotic episodes and also crucial to the welfare of the girl. Instead, he encouraged him to seek help in even deeper forms of meditation. In January 2015 he let him participate in a „Naikan“ meditation week where people sit for hours in silence. As one could have expected, K. turned psychotic again soon and had to be brought to the next psychiatric clinic, where he attempted to jump through a closed window.

Nevertheless, the medical doctor took him to a panel discussion where he and DGR openly spoke about the bad influence of „antipsychotics, antidepressants and antibiotics“. K. was definitely happy to hear that all his former psychiatrists must have been wrong. In a ritualized manner he joined DGR sangha and ever since wrote about his psychosis, his depressions and his delusive ideas in her facebook forum. K. participated in the Naikan week in January 2016 again. Of course, his medical doctor and leading sangha member had initiated that despite the previous experience. After the Naikan week, K. openly reported depressive symptoms in the DGR facebook forum.

So, DGR was aware of all of the above. She knew about his violence and his madness. She knew about the fears of new breakouts in his social environment, namely his daughter and the mother of his daughter. The mother had gone through six family court proceedings to protect her child from having to spend the weekends with her father. Still, at that time the family court and the youth welfare officials stood under the influence of K.´s lies and manipulations. K. attempted to play the misunderstood and misjudged victim and even displayed his joining of the DGR cult as a sign of having been healed.

After the seventh legal proceeding he still was allowed to see his daughter, but supervised and only once per month for four hours. By then, DGR had already regarded him to be ready for enlightenment. She invited him to her summer retreat 2017. But K.´s daughter ran away from him. She began soon to ring her mother to bring her back home only a few minutes after the meetings with K. began. Obviously, something bad was on the way and she realized it better than the social worker.

Her class teacher wrote in an E-Mail to the mother that she was worried because the girl appeared to be different, sad, discouraged and afraid of having to see her father again. The mail was handes off to the youth welfare officials and K. got informed about it. On the next weekend, K. lead her away from the social worker out of his visual and hearing distance and shouted at her „not to be afraid of him“. In a previous letter to the mother he announced to introduce his daughter to his mahayana way: „She shall know, who her father really is“. It must have hit him severely to realize that she did not have the slightest bit of interest in his self-assumed enlightenment.

K. returned from summer retreat and called himself „enlightened“ in two facebook postings. Meanwhile, the mother had found writings from her daughter, she had kept secret at school. They said: „I am most sad when I must see my father“ and „I AM I – STOP DOING THIS TO ME, K.“. When K. got confronted with this, he simply replied: „Am I expected to cry now?“

In a moderated talk with the mother and youth welfare officials in September 2017 he appeared in a psychotic state. He shouted angrily at everybody, expressed paranoid ideas and finally had to be expelled from the meeting. The appearance was so dangerous that the mother was advised not to leave the office alone and to call somebody to pick her up.

K. ´s state worsened visibly. In March 2018 he attacked his girlfriend violently. She rang the police and ran away, slept for four nights in her car because she had nobody else to go to. She later reported that K. had cut himself so heavily under the influence of the psychosis that the flat was covered with blood all over. Not long before this new psychosis, another member of the German DGR sangha, a psychologist made some MBSR sessions with K. and K. had tried to convince his girlfriend to also participate in that against her own will and her own conviction, that the DGR sangha is a bunch of people addicted and misled by a narcissistic and self-cherishing woman. She had met DGR personally, and – according to her verbal report – had to pay 150 Euro for having her to lay her hand on her forehead.

Anyway, K.´s girlfriend left the MBSR sessions before they had finished. The psychologist had also been introduced to the violent character of K. ´s psychosis and the definite contraindication of meditations of any kind. But – like the medical doctor before – she ignored all this and most probably helped developing this new psychosis, which brought K. back to hospital for another 18 days. After his release from hospital he visited DGRs events straight away and went on doing so to the present day.

Today, the result of DGRs enlightenment of K. looks like this:
1. He had no access to his daughter since July2017. She refuses to see him and his chances to force her by law are extremely low.
2. He lost his job and his attorney authorization.
3. Most of his money is gone and – at an age of early 40 – he applied for a pension because he is unable to work.
4. He still donates to DGR, he seeks for enlightenment by her and she accepts all this despite the blood, the violence and the distress.

Now, one must ask a couple of questions:
1. Can DGR really be a holy person with unlimited wisdom, when her influence causes such a mess?
2. Why was she so blind towards obvious facts that spoke against K. to meditate and take lay vows?
3. If the medical doctor and the psychologist are enlightened beings – which presumably is the case because of them being high-ranking members for a longer time than K. – why is their level of enlightenment so poor that they lacked enough insight into their own mistakes?

The behaviour of her followers in this story looks so remarkably stupid and careless at the same time, especially in the face of her own writings about the character of a boddhisattva:

„The refraction of life’s energies shining through the authentic jewel...enlightened Bodhi mind, will create a vibrant and inviting open space where living beings will benefit definitively and eternally.“
„A feature of enlightenment is the cultivation and care of discriminating awareness. This extraordinary state is a new kind of alertness, arising as a result of transformation of the mind. It is the deep wisdom resource flowing from higher evolved values. It is of another order of thought altogether, thinking without thought. Discriminating awareness resonates with clarity and is attracted to the healthier of choices, or no choices at all!“
„Bodhichitta motivation is absolute common sense! Perhaps many people confuse bodhichitta, (the actual enlightened view), with the increasing good motivation to act within the behavioral model of a bodhisattva.“


Nothing of these statements´ contents is reflected in the behaviour of the persons in this true story. Therefore the enlightenment of people does not seem to be a result of DGR´s teachings, rather she provides a stage to reinforce narcissism and self-cherishing.
Locked

Return to “Gelug”