Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools

User avatar
lasirene
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:33 am

Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools

Post by lasirene » Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:10 am

Hi. I am a student of Ole Nydahl. I would like to do the practice of Dorje Phagmo, but soon I will not have any opportunity to take initiation from the hands of the Karma Kagyu lama. However, it is possible that Garchen Rinpoche from Drikung Kagyu line will give me this initiation sooner. I saw thangkas of Vajravarahi from Drikung Kagyu school and some of them show the Dakini with the raised left foot, while in Karma Kagyu it is the right leg. However, when she hugs her partner, it is assumed the position as in other traditions... I wonder what are the differences between the practices of these two schools?

dzoki
Posts: 419
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by dzoki » Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:39 pm

lasirene wrote:Hi. I am a student of Ole Nydahl. I would like to do the practice of Dorje Phagmo, but soon I will not have any opportunity to take initiation from the hands of the Karma Kagyu lama. However, it is possible that Garchen Rinpoche from Drikung Kagyu line will give me this initiation sooner. I saw thangkas of Vajravarahi from Drikung Kagyu school and some of them show the Dakini with the raised left foot, while in Karma Kagyu it is the right leg. However, when she hugs her partner, it is assumed the position as in other traditions... I wonder what are the differences between the practices of these two schools?
Could you show us the picture? As far as I know also in Drikung Vajravarahi has the right foot raised. The form of Vajrayogini/Vajravarahi which is quite popular in Drikung is called Two faced Vajrayogini or Vajrayogini with face of two truths. It looks a just slightly bit different from Karma Kagyu Vajravarahi which has a pig´s head protruding on the top of her head, the Drikung yogini with the Face of two truths has a pig´s head as the right face. Mantra used in both traditions is same. Both of these forms come from Chakarasamvara tantra, though their lineage is different, the Drikung yogini comes from the lineage of Lakshminkara and did not go to Tibet through Marpa.
There is pretty long sadhana of Drikung Vajrayogini by Rigdzin Chokyi Dragpa, called Ship of Liberation, this seems to be a main text used for Drikung Vajrayogini in the West, it focuses on the offerings and accumulating merit, it is quite rich, but also quite complicated, there is another much shorter text, but I don´t know its name. I think you would be better off starting with the shorter practice, ask Garchen Rinpoche about that.

Here is Karma Kagyu Vajravarahi:
http://www.himalayanart.org/image.cfm/839.html

Here is a Drikung Vajrayogini:
http://www.coloradoratnashri.net/images ... yogini.jpg

Silent Bob
Posts: 247
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:12 am

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by Silent Bob » Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:17 pm

In four decades of practice, I have never seen a representation of Vajravarahi with the left leg raised and my guess is that OP saw some off-brand thanka. As Lama Yeshe Gyamtso remarked in another context, "Thanka painters are notoriously unreliable sources of accurate information".
"All the sublime teachings, so profound--to throw away one and then grab yet another will not bear even a single fruit. Persevere, therefore, in simply one."
--Dudjom Rinpoche, "Nectar for the Hearts of Fortunate Disciples. Song No. 8"

User avatar
heart
Posts: 3998
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by heart » Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:37 pm

Silent Bob wrote:In four decades of practice, I have never seen a representation of Vajravarahi with the left leg raised and my guess is that OP saw some off-brand thanka. As Lama Yeshe Gyamtso remarked in another context, "Thanka painters are notoriously unreliable sources of accurate information".
True that.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 4606
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by conebeckham » Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:25 pm

I've not seen one either, though I only have a couple decades of experience.... :smile:

I also don't know Drikung Vajravarahi--and the info here in this thread is interesting. I would have thought the Kamtsang and Drikung practices were from the same lineage, via Marpa/Mila/Gampopa.

I will say this: in Karma Kagyu, Vajrayogini/Varahi is very important. Primary, even. I have heard, but cannot say with full certainty, that Drikungpas place more emphasis on Chakrasamvara in Sahaja form. I would urge anyone with a connection to the Karma Kagyu lineage, and an interest in Varahi, to seek out and practice that lineage's transmission, instructions, etc., because they are unique to the Karma Kagyu lineage. But this is a very complex and elaborate practice in it's full form, not something one can just "add" to one's daily roster or deity recitations, IMO.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

User avatar
ratna
Posts: 273
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:32 pm

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by ratna » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:02 am

Silent Bob wrote:In four decades of practice, I have never seen a representation of Vajravarahi with the left leg raised and my guess is that OP saw some off-brand thanka. As Lama Yeshe Gyamtso remarked in another context, "Thanka painters are notoriously unreliable sources of accurate information".
I've received an instruction where the left leg was raised.

R

User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 4606
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by conebeckham » Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:33 pm

Tell us more, Ratna!
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

User avatar
ratna
Posts: 273
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:32 pm

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by ratna » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:25 pm

conebeckham wrote:Tell us more, Ratna!
That was in the context of the Drikung Phowa.

User avatar
lasirene
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:33 am

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by lasirene » Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:33 am

Image

User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 4606
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by conebeckham » Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:08 pm

A little research confirms that image of Varahi you've posted is concerned with or related to the Drikung Phowa practice, which was commented on here in this thread. I understand they have a unique Phowa transmission. The fact that the Thangka contains a single figure, with no other deities, leads me to think this--as does the seated Amitabha image...

Image
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

User avatar
Karma Sherab
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:13 pm

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by Karma Sherab » Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:03 pm

....the easiest explanation, which I have seen in person, is a photo developed by a photo studio, that was reversed.
One kind word can warm three winter months
Japanese Proverb

User avatar
Palzang Jangchub
Posts: 803
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:19 pm
Contact:

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:25 am

conebeckham wrote:A little research confirms that image of Varahi you've posted is concerned with or related to the Drikung Phowa practice, which was commented on here in this thread. I understand they have a unique Phowa transmission. The fact that the Thangka contains a single figure, with no other deities, leads me to think this--as does the seated Amitabha image...

Image
Here is the full lineage thangka for the Phowa Jag-tshug-ma (a.k.a. Great Drikung Phowa)---the same image given to those who receive the empowerment. The practice originated as a Nyingma terma and was eventually given to the 1st Drikung Kyabgön Chetsang Rinpoche, and hence became a specialty of the Drikung Kagyupas:

http://www.garchen.net/resources/phowa- ... ree5x7.jpg


A detailed history of the practice, just as it is included at the beginning of the elaborate sadhana, can be found here:

http://www.ddcflorida.com/2009/01/jag-t ... grass.html :coffee:


:focus:

As for the difference between the Kamtsang and Drikung versions of Vajravarahi, quite honestly I didn't even notice that the leg raised differs between the two lineages at times, despite these being the two Kagyu lineages I have the most experience with. Is there significance in which leg is up, or are we simply used to it being the right leg? Could the placement of the sow's head be artistic license?

That said, I do know that 'Vajrayogini with the Faces of the Two Truths' is the Drikung Kagyu practice, whereas I may have dealt with mainly the Yangzab version of Varahi due to involvement in Lho Ontul Rinpoche's Drikung Dzogchen Communities...

Whatever the case, lasirene, rest assured that the essence of all deities is the same. Vajrayogini manifests in a multitude of forms to benefit beings with varying capacities and propensities, and Vajravarahi is an especially important yidam (if not the main one) for all Dagpo Kagyu (the 4 elder and 8 younger lineages).

Perhaps someone with more experience with the Shangpa Kagyu can comment on how central she is there?
Image

"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ

untxi
Posts: 138
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:15 pm

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by untxi » Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:39 pm

The Yangzab Vajravarahi is the black dakini Troma Nagmo in a five-deity mandala with her entourage of dakinis. There are separate sadhanas for the mahayoga, anuyoga and atiyoga practices, as well as its own six yogas practice and commentary. In the Yangzab Three Roots she is red in union with Hayagriva, but she is not practiced as a dakini in that form. The mahamudra Vajravarahi is entirely a different practice and the style of the sadhana is an annutaratantrayoga sadhana. Whether she stands on the right or left is entirely an emphasis of skillful means (right) versus wisdom (left).

-Untxi

User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 4606
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by conebeckham » Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:45 pm

Most current-day Shangpa Kagyu practitioners complete the Kamtsang Phagmo before engaging in the Shangpa yidam practices. Perhaps not all....I don't know for sure.

In Shangpa, the dakini practices come AFTER the completion stage yogas--in particular, the "red and white dakinis" are very special and profound practices, and there is also the tradition of the Five Dakinis of the Shangpa, which is separate from Kamtsang Phagmo Lha Nga.

But Phagmo figures in her usual context as consort of Chakrasamvara, in Shangpa (Niguma's) Chakrasamvara, and also in the Shangpa Gyu De Lha Nga practice. And she appears in the completion stage practices, as well.

I don't know this for a fact, but I think the Drikung Phowa version is specialized for that practice, and the general Drikung Phagmo would be iconographically the same as Kamtsang Phagmo. Not sure the "location" of the Sow's head is different, frankly--but I may be wrong.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

User avatar
Palzang Jangchub
Posts: 803
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:19 pm
Contact:

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:13 pm

Not sure of the symbolism behind it, but the Yangzab Three Roots, the Hayagriva yab-yum has Hayagriva as the usual red, but Vajravarahi is blue, rather than her usual red. This is the only place I've seen Dorje Phagmo depicted as blue. Everywhere else she seems to be red, except where she is represented as one of her specialized forms (e.g. Troma Nagmo being black, etc). Anyone know the reason?


Image
Image

"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ

untxi
Posts: 138
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:15 pm

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by untxi » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:44 pm

In the Yangzab the dakini is blue only union with Hayagriva in the Three Roots. The dakini is blackish in the separate Yangzab Varahi practice.

In truth, in more general terms, the dakini can appear in a variety of colors, more commonly white, red, blue and black. In one way of looking at it there is one for each of the Buddha families, and each of the Buddha activities. Looking at it in another way, there is no definite color or form as the dakini manifests according to the needs of beings.

-Untxi

User avatar
lorem
Posts: 674
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:27 pm
Location: Fresno, California

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by lorem » Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:00 am

H H the Gyalwa Drikungpa gave Standing Grass Blade online and I have not asked anyone but from my experience different Vajravarahi with leg lifted is so you don't begin the transference of consciousness. Specific Vajravarahi for the practice of phowa is my feeling.
I should be meditating.

Gert
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:25 am

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by Gert » Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:21 pm

As far as I know in Drikung we have Vajravarahi with left foot up in Phowa tradition.
The main Deity practice is right foot bent upwards.
So thats the difference. And Phowa transmission is quite often given in public. So I guess
thats where the difference comes.

User avatar
lelopa
Posts: 237
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:03 pm

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by lelopa » Sun Nov 02, 2014 12:48 pm

the karma kagyus have two main dorje phagmos: the so called kamtsang phagmo (with the boar's head on top of her head) - with the mantra and sadhana as in the milarepa-puja's self-blessing part - with the harinisa-mantra ( i think the sadhana of her was created by a sharmapa)
and the dorje phagmo with the " three om mantra" wich is a little bit different and more diffused among the other traditions!
ཨོཾ་ཨཱཿཧཱུྃ་བོ་དྷི་ཙིཏྟ་མ་ཧཱ་སུ་ཁ་ཛྙཱ་ན་དྷཱརྟུ་ཨཱཿ

User avatar
Karma_Yeshe
Posts: 237
Joined: Mon May 26, 2014 3:47 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by Karma_Yeshe » Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:52 am

Isn't the real idea behind the way Vajravahari's feet are shown that she is dancing?

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests