Indian Vajrayana

[Khechara]

Yes, that is an interesting article. I wish I could get my hands on his dissertation (“Becoming Indian: A Study of the Life of the 16th–17th Century Tibetan Lama Tāranātha.” PhD diss., Monash University, 2008).

There is also some interesting discussion of late Indian Vajrayana in the nath community in "From Bodhgaya to Lhasa to Beijing: The Life and Times of Sariputra (c. 1335-1426)，Last Abbot of Bodhgaya" by Arthur Philip McKeown, http://www.scribd.com/doc/117058153/McK ... f-Bodhgaya, particularly in the introduction. McKeown writes (pg 25):

Increasingly, denying Indian Buddhism's survival creates more problems than it solves. The real questions are how and when it finally disappeared from India. Historians like D.C. Sircar argue that it survived in "family lineages," even if Buddhism's institutional form disappeared sometime before the eighteenth century. If a date were needed to mark Buddhism's demise, the fifteenth/sixteenth to eighteenth centuries interval provides one marker. Such decline would be neither drastic, dramatic, nor cataclysmic, but a more even downward slope with periodic resurgences.

Thanks for sharing the McKeown book, Greg. I have downloaded it and will give it a read soon. Is Templeman's dissertation on Lama Taranatha published somewhere?

McKeown's introduction is spot-on. This is another argument which I whole-heartedly agree with. Whilst Buddhism's institutional form has more or less disappeared in modern India it would be illogical to assume that it hasn't survived, even fractionally, within 'family lineages'. Bengal still has its share of practicing Buddhists and renowned scholars of Indology and Tantrism like Mm. Haraprasad Shastri, who was responsible for discovering the 'Charyapada' manuscripts; and his son Benoytosh Bhattacharya, author of ''Indian Buddhist Iconography'' and ''Introduction to Buddhist Esoterism'', were Buddhists. Perhaps it is imperative that a modern study of the presence of Buddhism in Bengal and its neighboring areas be facilitated for a better understanding of this situation.

[Greg]

You're welcome! Unfortunately I'm pretty sure Templeton's dissertation is unpublished and not easy to get.

I also remember Malcolm commented at one point, I think on esangha (I can't find the thread),

Chris Fynn, a number of years ago, wrote that his teacher, Kunnu Lama, had met some externally Hindu sadhus in Varanasi in the 1930's, who secretly practiced Chakrasamvara-- he was able to identify these practitioner through the secret signs given in the tantras for practitioners to be able to recognize each other at the pithas and the upapithas.

So it seems that in fact there are some very hidden lineages of Buddhist Vajrayana that managed to survive into 20th century and possibly to this day.

So that is interesting too.

[KonchokZoepa]

yes, that is very interesting.

[Khechara]

You're welcome! Unfortunately I'm pretty sure Templeton's dissertation is unpublished and not easy to get.

I also remember Malcolm commented at one point, I think on esangha (I can't find the thread),

Chris Fynn, a number of years ago, wrote that his teacher, Kunnu Lama, had met some externally Hindu sadhus in Varanasi in the 1930's, who secretly practiced Chakrasamvara-- he was able to identify these practitioner through the secret signs given in the tantras for practitioners to be able to recognize each other at the pithas and the upapithas.

So it seems that in fact there are some very hidden lineages of Buddhist Vajrayana that managed to survive into 20th century and possibly to this day.

So that is interesting too.

This post just made the conversation more interesting.

[invisiblediamond]

The Phatingpa brothers were Naropa'a best disciples. I wonder if there might be their remnant in Nepal. There might be someone there keeping Naropa's original teachings alive.

[Adamantine]

Yes, I visited Sankhu two years ago at just this time of year. What d'ya want to know about it?

Everything, lol! I was attracted to it because both Saktas and Buddhists revere the Vajrayogini temple and it made me think how both these religious systems mix in Nepal.

Was just there for the first time. It is a special place, and
managed by Newari priests who of course are open to both forms of devotion: Buddhist and Hindu, so Buddhists and even Western Buddhists are permitted to see inside the main yidam and make offerings: but according to other Hindu styles of ritual purity only the priest is allowed entry to the main sanctum and is the only one who can handle directly the offerings, and can not even be handed anything directly, etc. Since it's not possible to directly do a proper puja there if you are a Vajrayana practitioner because of these restrictions there is a satellite temple with a different representation of Vajrayogini that one can directly enter, sit with and do puja if one likes. There is some minor but possibly structural damage visible as cracks is the main temple from the earthquake and they are collecting donations for repair. Also, the naturally arising flame up the stairs from the main temple that was burning it was said from the beginning of time was disturbed by the earthquake and from what I understood buried and lost. There's another smoldering fire pit that it seems was constructed as a replacement for temdrel since.

I find this thread of interest as I've learned of many sincere and auspicious interactions between Chatral Rinpoche, some of his disciples, and various unidentified Sadhu baba Indian yogis where there was mutual recognition of some profound mutual basis of understanding it seems. Can't really say more than that.

There are many holy places in Nepal in particular that Buddhists and Hindus mutually worship at. There's a text by Chatral Rinpoche about Maratika, as an example, that explains that outwardly it is a place of the play of Shiva and Parvati, inwardly it is the sacred place of long-life union practice of Padmasambhava and Mandarava, and secretly it is the actual pure realm of Buddha Amitayus and consort. To paraphrase from memory.

[Nyedrag Yeshe]

The Nath lineage is Hindu. So how could it be Vajrayana? I don't believe he has an unbroken Vajrayana lineage. Unless he got it from the Tibetans. Indians love to play with their alphabet soup. It seems he's founds ways to mix and match terms. Somehow he managed to leave out Saraha as the root of tantric teachings. That's an obvious sign something's wrong here. Also he mixes up Samkya with Vajrayana. That's another one. There are many. There's no unbroken Vajrayana lineage in India or Nepal, except with the Tibetan folks.

No. Nepalis have Newar Vajrayana, distinct from Tb! They still preserve Buddhist tantras, precepts etc. Chakrasamvara being preferred among their Vajracharyas.

[Nyedrag Yeshe]

This text elucidates the whole process of initiations given to a Vajracharya/Shakya, down from Refuge and their symbolic 'monastic ordination' or Cudakarma, up to full Vajrayana Abhisheka! http://himalaya.socanth.cam.ac.uk/colle ... _02_01.pdf

[Adamantine]

This text elucidates the whole process of initiations given to a Vajracharya/Shakya, down from Refuge and their symbolic 'monastic ordination' or Cudakarma, up to full Vajrayana Abhisheka! http://himalaya.socanth.cam.ac.uk/colle ... _02_01.pdf

Interesting, thanks for the link.. Just a brief glance over and
it appears to be along the lines of Kriya Yoga Tantra, with
their dietary restrictions of no meat garlic, onions etc and
ritual bathing.. purification focus. Which makes
me wonder if what I projected on the Sankhu temple as
a conformation to Hindu ritual purity may indeed have
been their strain of Vajrayana instead.

[Nyedrag Yeshe]

This text elucidates the whole process of initiations given to a Vajracharya/Shakya, down from Refuge and their symbolic 'monastic ordination' or Cudakarma, up to full Vajrayana Abhisheka! http://himalaya.socanth.cam.ac.uk/colle ... _02_01.pdf

Interesting, thanks for the link.. Just a brief glance over and
it appears to be along the lines of Kriya Yoga Tantra, with
their dietary restrictions of no meat garlic, onions etc and
ritual bathing.. purification focus. Which makes
me wonder if what I projected on the Sankhu temple as
a conformation to Hindu ritual purity may indeed have
been their strain of Vajrayana instead.

But also note about in the end, you see about giving the lung of Chakrasamvara! They have a whole system of HYT indeed! Newaris, both hindu and buddhist are meat eaters! The abhisheka given here is a HYT!

[Lingpupa]

Was just there for the first time. It is a special place, and...

So was I! Two months ago, to be precise. It's a long way up, isn't it? I reckoned about 700 steps.

[Malcolm]

Also he mixes up Samkya with Vajrayana.

So does Kalacakra.

[liuzg150181]

Also he mixes up Samkya with Vajrayana.

So does Kalacakra.

Referring to Jonang's Zhentong view?

[Malcolm]

Also he mixes up Samkya with Vajrayana.

So does Kalacakra.

Referring to Jonang's Zhentong view?

No, referring to the contents of the Kalacakra itself. There is a Saṃkhya of Shambhala. In Kalacakra, according to Tagtsang Lotsawa:

• Consciousness [shes rig] is the partless solitary knower [jñā] who is an enjoyer, is neither a nature nor an evolute, only this is conscious, the others held to be without consciousnesses [bem po].

• Luminosity, the primal nature of the mind, is said to be consciousness [shes rig, i.e., puruśa]. As such, these phenomena of the body are said to exist in the manner prakṛti and purusha.

[Zhen Li]

This text elucidates the whole process of initiations given to a Vajracharya/Shakya, down from Refuge and their symbolic 'monastic ordination' or Cudakarma, up to full Vajrayana Abhisheka! http://himalaya.socanth.cam.ac.uk/colle ... _02_01.pdf

Interesting, thanks for the link.. Just a brief glance over and
it appears to be along the lines of Kriya Yoga Tantra, with
their dietary restrictions of no meat garlic, onions etc and
ritual bathing.. purification focus. Which makes
me wonder if what I projected on the Sankhu temple as
a conformation to Hindu ritual purity may indeed have
been their strain of Vajrayana instead.

But also note about in the end, you see about giving the lung of Chakrasamvara! They have a whole system of HYT indeed! Newaris, both hindu and buddhist are meat eaters! The abhisheka given here is a HYT!

I also saw Vajrayogini at Sankhu last year.

The Vajrācarya Vajrayāna/Sahajayāna practices go up to Anuttarayogatantra. But Śākyas practices are mainly Mahāyāna with some Kriyayoga Vajrayāna. One used to be able to become a Vajrācarya so long as one initiated as a Śākya(-bikṣu), first, but now this is hereditary. However, if you want to know of an uninterrupted "Indian" (read "Sanskritic") Vajrayāna tradition which is not the same as "syncretic" Śaivism, then Nepal is the place to go. Buddhists and Hindus worship at public shrines and so forth of one another, because one always holds the deities of the other tradition to be manifestations of one's own, but the Anuttarayogatantra is always kept in secret rooms. What is called "Hindu" purity by some, is merely orthodox Mahāyāna, as found in the sūtras, to others.

[Losal Samten]

There is a Saṃkhya of Shambhala.

Is this seen as definitive?

[dzogchungpa]

I've learned of many sincere and auspicious interactions between Chatral Rinpoche, some of his disciples, and various unidentified Sadhu baba Indian yogis where there was mutual recognition of some profound mutual basis of understanding it seems. Can't really say more than that.

[Malcolm]

There is a Saṃkhya of Shambhala.

Is this seen as definitive?

Meaning is it accepted as Buddhadharma? Yes.

[Losal Samten]

There is a Saṃkhya of Shambhala.

Is this seen as definitive?

Meaning is it accepted as Buddhadharma? Yes.

Any other views present in Shambhala that we know of or is that it?

[Malcolm]

Is this seen as definitive?

Meaning is it accepted as Buddhadharma? Yes.

Any other views present in Shambhala that we know of or is that it?

That is it, AFAIK.