Sutra Mahamudra, Tantric Mahamudra, & Mahamudra

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conebeckham
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Re: Sutra Mahamudra, Tantric Mahamudra, & Mahamudra

Post by conebeckham » Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:32 am

I hasten to add...you're right about the "look at your mind" kind of thing being Sutra Mahamudra. That is part of the classic investigation.

RE the "All practices are Mahamudra"--simply put, if one understands, in an experiential way, the coemergent nature of all experience--perceptions, thoughts, sensations-- and emptiness, all practice can be Mahamudra. That's simple, right?

Here it is, from Kongtrul's Encyclopedia, --it's the volume on "Esoteric Instructions" where you'll find his presentation of the Three Paths--as well as synopsis of Drikung's FiveFold Mahamudra....which applies to the above:

"...When one attains stability in those (the fivefold practices), everything becomes Mahamudra. Awakening mind without frame of reference, the deity's body of inseperable appearance-emptiness, samsara and nirvana as the play of the guru, mahamudra of inseperable awareness-emptiness, and the dedication with threefold perfect purity, and so on, can aptly be called awakening mind mahamuddra, deity mahamudra, devotion mahamudra, abiding nature mahamudra, dedication mahamudra, and so on. " (p/ 227).

Further, he says of the "essence tradition,:"

"The Essence is the descent of the vajra pristine awareness
Simultaneously ripening and liberating those of highest faculties." (p. 225)

He goes on to say:"Just the descent of blessings in the vajra pristine awareness empowerment bestowed by a realized guru on a fortunate student of the highest and sharpest faculties awakens ordinary mind in his or her innermost heart, causing realization and liberation to occur at the same time." He then goes on to quote Indrabhuti, from the "Accomplishment of Pristine Awareness,":

"Conferral of the vajra pristine awareness empowerment
That attains the sublime excellent pristine awareness of
Thoroughly abandoning all thought
Brings accomplishment of the supreme spiritual power.

If you have all genuine pristine awarenesses
But still take empowerments elsewhere,
Using mandalas that are drawn,
This will damage your sacred pledge."

(bottom of p. 225).

Magnus, the Sutra Mahamudra Path includes Pointing Out Instructions, including those of Non Meditation.....I don't think Trekcho and Essence Mahamudra are the same, based on Kongtrul's words. What do you think? Check out the chapter on Marpa Kagyu....
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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heart
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Re: Sutra Mahamudra, Tantric Mahamudra, & Mahamudra

Post by heart » Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:44 am

You read empowerment and you think that means something grand, it is just THE pointing-out instruction. Since it is definitive it certainly appropriately could be called "the decent of the vajra wisdom". It by-pass all shamatha/viphassana and tsa-lung and is a non-gradual path.

But really, I hope you go and see Rinpoche and discuss this with him. As you know I myself practice Dzogchen even if my Guru teach both.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Sutra Mahamudra, Tantric Mahamudra, & Mahamudra

Post by invisiblediamond » Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:43 am

Essence is the path of devotion. Devotion and blessing. Is also the path of direct recognition of the Dharmakaya. Direct recognition with devotion and blessing as the cause. This is what is meant by descent of wisdom empowerment. This and the Ganges Mahamudra transmission.

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smcj
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Re: Sutra Mahamudra, Tantric Mahamudra, & Mahamudra

Post by smcj » Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:46 am

Is Kongtrul's Encyclopedia available in English? I just tried to find it on Amazon but didn't see it.
In the Tantra of the Beautiful Auspiciousness (bKra shis mdzes ldan gyi rgyud), this "Great Primordial Purity" (spyi gzhi) is defined as follows:

What is known as "The Great Primordial Purity”
Is the state abiding before authentic Buddhas arose
And before impure sentient beings appeared;
It is called the great Primordial radiance of immutable awareness.

*****
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In the strangest of places
If you look at it right.
-Robert Hunter-

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Re: Sutra Mahamudra, Tantric Mahamudra, & Mahamudra

Post by heart » Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:56 am

invisiblediamond wrote:Essence is the path of devotion. Devotion and blessing. Is also the path of direct recognition of the Dharmakaya. Direct recognition with devotion and blessing as the cause. This is what is meant by descent of wisdom empowerment. This and the Ganges Mahamudra transmission.
Sure, that also makes sense.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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heart
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Re: Sutra Mahamudra, Tantric Mahamudra, & Mahamudra

Post by heart » Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:58 am

smcj wrote:Is Kongtrul's Encyclopedia available in English? I just tried to find it on Amazon but didn't see it.
http://www.shambhala.com/authors/g-n/ja ... ledge.html

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Sutra Mahamudra, Tantric Mahamudra, & Mahamudra

Post by smcj » Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:29 am

heart wrote:
smcj wrote:Is Kongtrul's Encyclopedia available in English? I just tried to find it on Amazon but didn't see it.
http://www.shambhala.com/authors/g-n/ja ... ledge.html

/magnus
Thanks. It's a bit out of my price range right now, but it is on my wish list.

I feel like if I bought it, and actually read it and not just skimmed it, I'd know what I was talking about!
In the Tantra of the Beautiful Auspiciousness (bKra shis mdzes ldan gyi rgyud), this "Great Primordial Purity" (spyi gzhi) is defined as follows:

What is known as "The Great Primordial Purity”
Is the state abiding before authentic Buddhas arose
And before impure sentient beings appeared;
It is called the great Primordial radiance of immutable awareness.

*****
Sometimes you can get shown the light
In the strangest of places
If you look at it right.
-Robert Hunter-

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Re: Sutra Mahamudra, Tantric Mahamudra, & Mahamudra

Post by futerko » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:32 am

smcj wrote:
heart wrote:
smcj wrote:Is Kongtrul's Encyclopedia available in English? I just tried to find it on Amazon but didn't see it.
http://www.shambhala.com/authors/g-n/ja ... ledge.html

/magnus
Thanks. It's a bit out of my price range right now, but it is on my wish list.

I feel like if I bought it, and actually read it and not just skimmed it, I'd know what I was talking about!
There did used to be a couple of volumes available in free .pdf form, 6.3 and 6.4, if you search for them.
we cannot get rid of God because we still believe in grammar - Nietzsche

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conebeckham
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Re: Sutra Mahamudra, Tantric Mahamudra, & Mahamudra

Post by conebeckham » Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:54 pm

heart wrote:You read empowerment and you think that means something grand, it is just THE pointing-out instruction. Since it is definitive it certainly appropriately could be called "the decent of the vajra wisdom". It by-pass all shamatha/viphassana and tsa-lung and is a non-gradual path.

But really, I hope you go and see Rinpoche and discuss this with him. As you know I myself practice Dzogchen even if my Guru teach both.

/magnus
You are equating the Vajra Pristine Awareness empowerment with "Ngotro," Pointing Out Instructions, etc.
The question is, is "Ngotro," Pointing Out Instruction, the Fourth Empowerment of Anuttarayogatantra, or even the Rigpa'i Tsel Wang the same as this empowerment spoken of by Kongtrul? I cannot answer that question. If you get an answer to that question from any qualified guru, I'd be interested to hear it.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Sutra Mahamudra, Tantric Mahamudra, & Mahamudra

Post by invisiblediamond » Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:39 pm

conebeckham wrote:
heart wrote:You read empowerment and you think that means something grand, it is just THE pointing-out instruction. Since it is definitive it certainly appropriately could be called "the decent of the vajra wisdom". It by-pass all shamatha/viphassana and tsa-lung and is a non-gradual path.

But really, I hope you go and see Rinpoche and discuss this with him. As you know I myself practice Dzogchen even if my Guru teach both.

/magnus
You are equating the Vajra Pristine Awareness empowerment with "Ngotro," Pointing Out Instructions, etc.
The question is, is "Ngotro," Pointing Out Instruction, the Fourth Empowerment of Anuttarayogatantra, or even the Rigpa'i Tsel Wang the same as this empowerment spoken of by Kongtrul? I cannot answer that question. If you get an answer to that question from any qualified guru, I'd be interested to hear it.
No. It's not. It's just blessing coming from guru visualization as Vajradhara over the crown. The Ganges Mahamudra transmission and commentary comes too.

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Re: Sutra Mahamudra, Tantric Mahamudra, & Mahamudra

Post by heart » Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:43 pm

conebeckham wrote:
heart wrote:You read empowerment and you think that means something grand, it is just THE pointing-out instruction. Since it is definitive it certainly appropriately could be called "the decent of the vajra wisdom". It by-pass all shamatha/viphassana and tsa-lung and is a non-gradual path.

But really, I hope you go and see Rinpoche and discuss this with him. As you know I myself practice Dzogchen even if my Guru teach both.

/magnus
You are equating the Vajra Pristine Awareness empowerment with "Ngotro," Pointing Out Instructions, etc.
The question is, is "Ngotro," Pointing Out Instruction, the Fourth Empowerment of Anuttarayogatantra, or even the Rigpa'i Tsel Wang the same as this empowerment spoken of by Kongtrul? I cannot answer that question. If you get an answer to that question from any qualified guru, I'd be interested to hear it.
Yes Cone, I do. And I don't really have a question about this since it been sufficiently resolved by CNR years ago.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Sutra Mahamudra, Tantric Mahamudra, & Mahamudra

Post by conebeckham » Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:52 pm

Paul, I take it that the original question is about the "Three Traditions of the Marpa Kagyu," and Essence Mahamudra, as one of those three, differs from the presentation you're talking about.

The Three Traditions of the Marpa Kagyu are clearly outlined by Kongtrul. But there are certainly a host of other Mahamudra teachings and traditions. It may be that Heart's "Essence Mahamudra" is a tradition outside the framework as presented by Kongtrul. I don't know. I do know that, for example, Shangpa Kagyu's Amulet Mahamudra is outside this "Three tradition" framework, and doesn't neatly fit into any of those buckets, either--it contains elements of all, to some degree.

It's good to be clear, and specific, and to understand that terms can have multiple meanings, depending on which tradition you're discussing.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Sutra Mahamudra, Tantric Mahamudra, & Mahamudra

Post by heart » Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:56 pm

invisiblediamond wrote:
No. It's not. It's just blessing coming from guru visualization as Vajradhara over the crown. The Ganges Mahamudra transmission and commentary comes too.
What you are describing could just as well be a "rigpai tsal wang" in the Dzogchen tradition.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Malcolm
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Re: Sutra Mahamudra, Tantric Mahamudra, & Mahamudra

Post by Malcolm » Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:13 pm

conebeckham wrote:
heart wrote:You read empowerment and you think that means something grand, it is just THE pointing-out instruction. Since it is definitive it certainly appropriately could be called "the decent of the vajra wisdom". It by-pass all shamatha/viphassana and tsa-lung and is a non-gradual path.

But really, I hope you go and see Rinpoche and discuss this with him. As you know I myself practice Dzogchen even if my Guru teach both.

/magnus
You are equating the Vajra Pristine Awareness empowerment with "Ngotro," Pointing Out Instructions, etc.
The question is, is "Ngotro," Pointing Out Instruction, the Fourth Empowerment of Anuttarayogatantra, or even the Rigpa'i Tsel Wang the same as this empowerment spoken of by Kongtrul? I cannot answer that question. If you get an answer to that question from any qualified guru, I'd be interested to hear it.
The descent of the wisdom vajra empowerment procedure is detailed in in chapter 17 of the Jñānasiddhi of Indrabhuti.

It is not the same as a rig pa'i rtsal dbang.

M
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Re: Sutra Mahamudra, Tantric Mahamudra, & Mahamudra

Post by heart » Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:58 pm

Malcolm wrote:
The descent of the wisdom vajra empowerment procedure is detailed in in chapter 17 of the Jñānasiddhi of Indrabhuti.

It is not the same as a rig pa'i rtsal dbang.

M
Which rigpai tsal wang are you talking about, there are many? But getting introduced directly to the nature of enlightenment is exactly what the rigpai tsal wang is about.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Sutra Mahamudra, Tantric Mahamudra, & Mahamudra

Post by invisiblediamond » Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:03 pm

The ripa tsal wang has a particular feature these others do not. And the Kagyu blessing has a particular taste of energy the Rigpa tsal wang does not.

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Re: Sutra Mahamudra, Tantric Mahamudra, & Mahamudra

Post by conebeckham » Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:12 pm

Well, thanks for the helpful info about Rigpa'i Tsel Wang. Can we confirm Trekcho and Essence Mahamudra are not the same as a result?

Malcolm, I believe you're familiar with Drikung Kagyu transmissions--is this tranmission Paul speaks of the
"Vajra Pristine Awareness Empowerment" as discussed by Indrabhuti?
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Malcolm
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Re: Sutra Mahamudra, Tantric Mahamudra, & Mahamudra

Post by Malcolm » Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:15 pm

conebeckham wrote:Well, thanks for the helpful info about Rigpa'i Tsel Wang. Can we confirm Trekcho and Essence Mahamudra are not the same as a result?

Malcolm, I believe you're familiar with Drikung Kagyu transmissions--is this tranmission Paul speaks of the
"Vajra Pristine Awareness Empowerment" as discussed by Indrabhuti?

Vajra pristine awareness = ye shes rdo rje = jñānavajra.

It is very likely the same. The Eighth Situ also discusses this in his commentary on the Mahamudra Aspiration by the Third Karmapa.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


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Human life spent in
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Malcolm
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Re: Sutra Mahamudra, Tantric Mahamudra, & Mahamudra

Post by Malcolm » Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:17 pm

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
The descent of the wisdom vajra empowerment procedure is detailed in in chapter 17 of the Jñānasiddhi of Indrabhuti.

It is not the same as a rig pa'i rtsal dbang.

M
Which rigpai tsal wang are you talking about, there are many? But getting introduced directly to the nature of enlightenment is exactly what the rigpai tsal wang is about.

/magnus
It's just not that simple, Magnus. There are two systems of rig pa'i rtsal bang -- sems sde and man ngag sde. Even within man ngag sde there are different kinds of rig pa'i rtsal dbangs, not to mention different rig pa'i rtsal dbangs in anuyoga and mahayoga systems like the King's cycle of Avalokiteshvara.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Re: Sutra Mahamudra, Tantric Mahamudra, & Mahamudra

Post by heart » Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:24 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
The descent of the wisdom vajra empowerment procedure is detailed in in chapter 17 of the Jñānasiddhi of Indrabhuti.

It is not the same as a rig pa'i rtsal dbang.

M
Which rigpai tsal wang are you talking about, there are many? But getting introduced directly to the nature of enlightenment is exactly what the rigpai tsal wang is about.

/magnus
It's just not that simple, Magnus. There are two systems of rig pa'i rtsal bang -- sems sde and man ngag sde. Even within man ngag sde there are different kinds of rig pa'i rtsal dbangs, not to mention different rig pa'i rtsal dbangs in anuyoga and mahayoga systems like the King's cycle of Avalokiteshvara.
Well, I am talking about rig pa'i rtsal bang in the mengakde. I think the purpose is quite singular or else you would be introducing something that was still mind.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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