Namo Amitabha Buddha, True and False

[thunderbumble]

When you're in a field of Dragon flies.
Don't Chase after them they will always be one step
Ahead.
Stop and hold out a finger.
Then a Dragon fly might land on it.
It might bite.

Trust in the Vow. Wisdom _/l\_ Compassion joined make
Love.
Love frees from having to do anything.
Meditate on Gratitude to all beings even your car and
Relax.

NAMO AMITABHA

Below is pdf.
Pure Land is often misunderstood as being
Like belief in a god.
It's really a transformation and a union with Amitabha
To become little Amida Buddhas.

(Hope the url is posted. If not, search
: True and False Shin Buddhism )

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 5fhv-XIZPw

[Son of Buddha]

When you're in a field of Dragon flies.
Don't Chase after them they will always be one step
Ahead.
Stop and hold out a finger.
Then a Dragon fly might land on it.
It might bite.

Trust in the Vow. Wisdom _/l\_ Compassion joined make
Love.
Love frees from having to do anything.
Meditate on Gratitude to all beings even your car and
Relax.

NAMO AMITABHA

Below is pdf.
Pure Land is often misunderstood as being
Like belief in a god.
It's really a transformation and a union with Amitabha
To become little Amida Buddhas.

(Hope the url is posted. If not, search
: True and False Shin Buddhism )

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 5fhv-XIZPw

sorry im on my phone ahd cannot copy and paste from PDF.
on topic (1(Amida Buddha is just a symbol)

The writer of the article fails to prove his views even exist in the Larger Sutra which he is supposedly "commentaring from".

I dont see any proof of his views on this subject anywhere nor does he quote any references to uphold his views(cause there isnt any).

His views on the subject are simply made up.......it would be like me saying Amida Buddha was actually an alien from the planet peace and bliss who came to earth in his flying palace and we all started worshoping this alien as if he was some kind of god but he really isnt,and in fact if you call out his name before you die he will come with his two alien commanders and beam you out of your death bed into his space craft.....and when you wake up(are born) from the lotus pod(hyperbolic chamber) you will be given a better body that doesnt age(become a cyborg) and live on his alien planet with beautiful genetically created jewelled flowers,and then you can travel to all the other alien planets(Buddha fields) and hang out with their alien commanders(Buddhas)............

You see what im getting with this dont you?
You can literally take ANYTHING and create a fradulent alternate reality and story behind it and try to pass it off as that is "true" and "thats what they really meant by the story not what it literally says)

Peace and Love

[thunderbumble]

Actually,
He says that Amida Buddha is "non dualistic"
As opposed to an external alien or separate
That Amida Buddha is a symbol and not a power but a path of transformation.

Dr. Takamaro Shigaraki, noted Shin Buddhist Scholar, former Professor and President of Ryukoku University, and author of A Life of Awakening: The Heart of the Shin Buddhist Path (2005) and Heart of the Shin Buddhist Path: A life of Awakening (2013)

[thunderbumble]

The Infinite Buddha, Amitabha...
Infinite compassion.
Our own little lives, "little worlds".
Every Buddha is one Buddha.

"Now, I, Vairocana Buddha am sitting atop a lotus pedestal; On a thousand flowers surrounding me are a thousand Sakyamuni Buddhas. Each flower supports a hundred million worlds; in each world a Sakyamuni Buddha appears. All are seated beneath a Bodhi-tree, all simultaneously attain Buddhahood. All these innumerable Buddhas have Vairocana as their original body"
Brahma Net Sutra

[DGA]

Dr. Takamaro Shigaraki, noted Shin Buddhist Scholar, former Professor and President of Ryukoku University, and author of A Life of Awakening: The Heart of the Shin Buddhist Path (2005) and Heart of the Shin Buddhist Path: A life of Awakening (2013)

I think the latter book is a republication of the former (Wisdom Publications sometimes does that--republishes books it thinks are valuable). Shigariki and his translator, D. Matsumoto, both have strong credentials. This thread piqued my interest; after doing a brief search, I turned up this review of the book A Life of Awakening, which may be of interest.

http://www.nembutsu.info/healsmith_shigaraki.htm

I'm interested in knowing a bit more about what thunderbumble means by "symbol" in this context. What does it mean for something or someone to be a symbol and not a power? It seems to me that symbols necessarily have a kind of power; if they did not, they would no longer function as symbols. All of which is to say that I'm having a hard time following this discussion, and any clarification will be appreciated. Thanks.

[futerko]

I'm interested in knowing a bit more about what thunderbumble means by "symbol" in this context. What does it mean for something or someone to be a symbol and not a power? It seems to me that symbols necessarily have a kind of power; if they did not, they would no longer function as symbols. All of which is to say that I'm having a hard time following this discussion, and any clarification will be appreciated. Thanks.

Symbol; somewhere between real and imagined, the realm in which almost all of human meaning is articulated. Ask Zizek!

...I think he means, not some kind of "higher power."

[DGA]

Ha!

I'm not so sure Shigariki had the Lacanian position in mind, though...

[Rakz]

Amida Buddha is a real Buddha otherwise the PL path would be pretty useless and there would be no reason to follow it.

[futerko]

Amida Buddha is a real Buddha otherwise the PL path would be pretty useless and there would be no reason to follow it.

I think that a sambhogakaya emanation would precisely be some halfway point between the ultimate and the relative, and of course would have efficacy in relation to samsara.

[thunderbumble]

I'm interested in knowing a bit more about what thunderbumble means by "symbol" in this context. What does it mean for something or someone to be a symbol and not a power? It seems to me that symbols necessarily have a kind of power; if they did not, they would no longer function as symbols. All of which is to say that I'm having a hard time following this discussion, and any clarification will be appreciated. Thanks.

Symbol; somewhere between real and imagined, the realm in which almost all of human meaning is articulated. Ask Zizek!

...I think he means, not some kind of "higher power."

That's exactly it. When True Awakening occur.
Shinjin. Shinjin (信心) was originally the Japanese word for the Buddhist concept of citta-prasāda (clear or clarified heart-mind), but now carries a more popular related meaning of faith or entrusting.

Whilst a general Japanese Buddhist term it is particularly associated with the Jodo Shinshu teaching of Shinran. In that context it refers to the awakening and settlement of the mind that is aware of the working of Amida Buddha's Primal Vow, and the assurance of birth in the Pure Land at death:

In Notes on 'Essentials of Faith Alone' Shinran writes "Know that the true essence of the Pure Land teaching is that when we realize true and real shinjin, we are born in the true fulfilled land."
After Shinran died, others misinterpreted it.
Shinran states "WHEN we realize true and real Shinjin...“
The Amida Buddha clearly states, that ("provided I become a Buddha...
18th Vow, the Primal Vow that states, If I were to become a Buddha, and people, hearing my Name, have faith and joy and recite it for even ten times, but were not born into my Pureland, may I not gain enlightenment

This clearly means that when we entrust in the Vow
We together with Amida Buddha fulfill the Vow.
The teaching is subtle and profound.

[thunderbumble]

If a Buddha Vows, I will not become a Buddha until such a thing be fulfilled, how can this Buddha exist lest the vow fulfilled?
By letting go of the grasping after Enlightenment, we can relax and experience the joy of Gratitude at what we already have. It's because Zen and Pure Land are reflections or two sides of the same coin.

[Son of Buddha]

Actually,
He says that Amida Buddha is "non dualistic"
As opposed to an external alien or separate
That Amida Buddha is a symbol and not a power but a path of transformation.

Dr. Takamaro Shigaraki, noted Shin Buddhist Scholar, former Professor and President of Ryukoku University, and author of A Life of Awakening: The Heart of the Shin Buddhist Path (2005) and Heart of the Shin Buddhist Path: A life of Awakening (2013)

Sigh....... my point with the alien alalogy is that a person can create fictitious back stories that dont even exist in the texts and claim "thats what they were really talking about"

If you actually read the PDF under (1) Amida is just a symbol you will see that the author creates an alternate story about Amitabha that doesnt even exist in the larger sutra.then he proceeds to establish a new doctrine based upon a made up "back story" that doesnt even exist.

It would be like me quoting the larger sutra when it says Amitabha and his 2 bodhisattvas will come for you when you die.........
Then me creating a back story saying "what he really means" is that he will come with a space ship to beam you up.

Also I must ask was Bodhisattva Dharmacara a real Bodhisattva who attained enlightenment and became Amitabha Buddha or is he just a symbol also?

[Son of Buddha]

Thunderbumble
In Notes on 'Essentials of Faith Alone' Shinran writes "Know that the true essence of the Pure Land teaching is that when we realize true and real shinjin, we are born in the true fulfilled land." After Shinran died, others misinterpreted it. Shinran states "WHEN we realize true and real Shinjin...“ The Amida Buddha clearly states, that ("provided I become a Buddha... 18th Vow, the Primal Vow that states, If I were to become a Buddha, and people, hearing my Name, have faith and joy and recite it for even ten times, but were not born into my Pureland, may I not gain enlightenment

None of that actually supports that Amida is just a symbol.
instead now you have to explain how people can be reborn into the pureland upon death if the places doesnt exist to begin with and is just a symbol.

You cant take literal rebirth into a symbol can you?

Better yet can you give me a quote from the larger sutra that says Amida Buddha isnt real and the Pureland isnt real they are just symbols.

[futerko]

If you actually read the PDF under (1) Amida is just a symbol you will see that the author creates an alternate story about Amitabha that doesnt even exist in the larger sutra.then he proceeds to establish a new doctrine based upon a made up "back story" that doesnt even exist.

The "back story", as you call it, is what is known as "Buddhism". The pdf. is absolutely correct and definitive in this matter.

[Son of Buddha]

straightforwardly aspire to be born in the Pure Land and accumulate roots of virtue. However hard you may practice in this life, it can only be for a short while. In the life to come you will be born in the land of Amitayus and enjoy endless bliss there.

Amida and the Pure Land shown to the audience [41] The Buddha said to Ananda, "Rise to your feet, rearrange your robes, put your palms together, and respectfully revere and worship Amitayus. Buddhas and Tathagatas in the lands of the ten quarters always praise with one accord that Buddha's virtues of non-attachment and unimpeded activity." Ananda stood up, rearranged his robes, assumed the correct posture, faced westward, and, demonstrating his sincere reverence, joined his palms together, prostrated himself on the ground and worshipped Amitayus. Then he said [278a] to the Buddha Shakyamuni, "World-Honored One, I wish to see that Buddha, his Land of Peace and Bliss, and its hosts of bodhisattvas and shravakas."
As soon as he had said this, Amitayus emitted a great light, which illuminated all the Buddha-lands. The Encircling Adamantine Mountains, Mount Sumeru, together with large and small mountains, and everything else shone with the same (golden) color. That light was like the flood at the end of the period of cosmic change that fills the whole world, when myriads of things are submerged, and as far as the eye can see, there is nothing but a vast expanse of water. Even so was the flood of light emanating from Amitayus. All the lights of shravakas and bodhisattvas were outshone and surpassed, and only the Buddha's light remained shining bright and glorious. At that time Ananda saw the splendor and majesty of Amitayus resembling Mount Sumeru, which rises above the whole world. There was no place which was not illuminated by the light emanating from his body of glory. The four groups of followers of the Buddha in the assembly saw all this at the same time. Likewise, those of the Pure Land saw everything in this world.

Two kinds of birth in the Pure Land [42] Then the Buddha said to Ananda and the Bodhisattva Maitreya, "Have you seen that land filled with excellent and glorious manifestations, all spontaneously produced, from the ground to the Heaven of Pure Abode,?" Ananda replied, "Yes, I have." The Buddha asked, "Have you also heard the great voice of Amitayus expound the Dharma to all the worlds, guiding sentient beings to the Way of the Buddha?" Ananda replied, "Yes, I have."

The Buddha further asked, "Have you also seen the inhabitants of that land move freely, riding in seven-jewelled airborne palaces as large as a hundred thousand yojanas, to worship the Buddhas of the lands in the ten quarters?" "Yes, I have," replied Ananda.

As you can see Amida Buddha is viewed as real and not a mere symbol.

Also for jokes sake I have more "evidence" in scripture that supports the theory that people in the Pure Land are flying around in massive rainbow colored intergalactic battleship cruisers than ypu have evidence to supoort the theory that Amida Buddha is just a symbol and not real.

[Son of Buddha]

If you actually read the PDF under (1) Amida is just a symbol you will see that the author creates an alternate story about Amitabha that doesnt even exist in the larger sutra.then he proceeds to establish a new doctrine based upon a made up "back story" that doesnt even exist.

The "back story", as you call it, is what is known as "Buddhism". The pdf. is absolutely correct and definitive in this matter.

Sure it is........ Thats why its taught in the Larger Sutra that Amida Buddha isnt real and neither is the Pure Land and you cannot be born into them

[futerko]

As you can see Amida Buddha is viewed as real and not a mere symbol.

Also for jokes sake I have more "evidence" in scripture that supports the theory that people in the Pure Land are flying around in massive rainbow colored intergalactic battleship cruisers than ypu have evidence to supoort the theory that Amida Buddha is just a symbol and not real.

I have no doubt that what is symbolic is also real, the prime example being money, so you seem to be basing your argument on a misunderstanding based upon a false dichotomy.

Nobody is arguing that Amitabha is purely imaginary. You are simply failing to understand what is meant here by the word symbolic.

[futerko]

Also I must ask was Bodhisattva Dharmacara a real Bodhisattva who attained enlightenment and became Amitabha Buddha or is he just a symbol also?

Both.

[Son of Buddha]

As you can see Amida Buddha is viewed as real and not a mere symbol.

Also for jokes sake I have more "evidence" in scripture that supports the theory that people in the Pure Land are flying around in massive rainbow colored intergalactic battleship cruisers than ypu have evidence to supoort the theory that Amida Buddha is just a symbol and not real.

I have no doubt that what is symbolic is also real, the prime example being money, so you seem to be basing your argument on a misunderstanding based upon a false dichotomy.

Nobody is arguing that Amitabha is purely imaginary. You are simply failing to understand what is meant here by the word symbolic.

Page 5 on the PDF is where Amida Buddha and the Pure Land turn into simple symbolism

Can you point ANYWHERE in that 26 pg PDF where the author mentions how living beings with Shinjin will gain the transference of merit from Amitabha Buddha and BE BORN INTO THE PURE LAND UPON DEATH.

Its a 26 Page PDF that talks about the Pure Land and never mentions the very basic principle of the Pure Land........to actually be reborn there to so we can study under the Buddha and become Enlightened.

The author is missing the very basic and initial purpose for Dharmakaras creation of the Pure Land.which is to save living beings who are suffering and give them a perfect place which is suitable for practice to be REBORN INTO so they can achieve Enlightenment.

So where does the author go into detail about the initial basics :living beings dying and being reborn into the Pure Land?

"When I have become a Buddha, My land shall be most exquisite, And its people wonderful and unexcelled; The seat of Enlightenment shall be supreme. My land, being like Nirvana itself, Shall be beyond comparison.

I take pity on living beings And resolve to save them all. Those who come from the ten quarters Shall find joy and serenity of heart; When they reach my land, They shall dwell in peace and happiness.
I beg you, the Buddha, to become my witness And to vouch for the truth of my aspiration. Having now made my vows to you, I will strive to fulfilll them."

[thunderbumble]

Buddha Shakyamuni died 500 years before that sutra was written. Mahayana scholars say Buddha Shakyamuni never gave this sermon. It's allegorical.