spiritnoname wrote:Luke, there are few things that offend me like alcohol and drugs, but it doesn't change the tantras,.. I've got no word in this matter, I can't change it, pointless to try to convince me.
Who said I was talking to you? I mean I don't mind talking to you, but I was replying to Individual.
The story I posted above about Gampopa and Milarepa should be viewed in context. Gampopa drank one cup of strong beer with Milarepa, which had great symbolic significance. Then Gampopa begin intense meditation training under Milarepa's guidance which resulted in him attaining enlightenment, but I don't think he drank at all during this period of time.
So I think the lesson is to accept small amounts of alcohol from one's lama during certain rituals and that other alcohol consumption has no positive effect on one's practice.
Alcohole is a poison to the body. Which is why when imbibed it makes ones head get funny. And if consumed to sufficient excess will kill one. It is a waste bypoduct.
I am just a uneducated layperson but to my limited understanding poisions may be utilized for specific purpose in some very rare tantric rituals. Such peoples (as has been said by others perhaps) are people who have attained such a degree of equanimity that they can eat piss and crap the same as the finest foods.
Other than that....to what purpose alcohol?
I personally won't consume a poision as others are used to doing so.
Alcohole is used in some specific practices as a offering to my personal knowledge.
Now consider a story(which may be a Buddhist story I don't know), of a king who received a foretelling by one of his oracles. Anyone drinking water from a well in the village (which was the primary well in the kingdom) would soon go quite mad. He thusly avoided this well. All else consumed the water and went as predicted quite mad. He was found quite strange and subject to all manner of concern as result by these same peoples. He was sane but they all were quite mad,(drinking poisions and eating bodies of those like them and doing all sorts of things of that sort, quite mad actually). He was considered odd, quite mad actually, by those gone mad, as he did not those things.
He thusly observed this. To remain as king, ruler of those peoples he had to be in some fashion as them, and considered not mad.. So he did consume the water to become mad like them, so he may continue to rule them as king...
Are we to be like that king?
Myself, I will abstain that drink.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
I've heard the story, from Nyingmapa sources, but a slightly different version. According to the version I heard the oracle profesied that rain would be poisonous and no one would avoid becoming deranged after drinking from it. Then the King hid for himself some water that was not poisoned by that profesied rainfall, and so on... The rest is similar, I've heard it twice in this form. The intention of the metafor was something other than alcohol,...??
svaha "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
I am not equating the drinking of the water with the drinking of alcohol. What I am saying is the drinking of a poision to feel funny in the head(drinking alcohol) is the act of a madperson. As a child me and my friends would hyperventilate and then grab eachothers chests and hold them to pass out. I had a acquaintance who had a friend who liked the smell of diesel so he would chase after buses to smell the exhaust from their pipes....he did not last long. So such things are incredibly stupid and found in adults are actually a form of madness.
So I recount the story of the king. It is madness he did not drink at least initially.
All sorts of various substantiations and rationals can be made for drinking alcohol....the truth is it is drinking a poision to make your head feel funny....that is what it is, nothing more.
STupid to the point of madness or to be considered in a not mad society...a form of madness.
As spiritual practice...well certainly, one may as well chase after buses and smell their pipes very rarely. It would be exactly similiar. So it may perhaps be employed.
My assumption as to why alcohol is used in certain select practices is to portray the assumption that the diety or being has attained or realized the abiity of equanamity. NOt taught or read equanamity in a book but real equanamity in which one substance is as another substance as piss or crap may be considered food. Alcohol mainly a poision may not be a poison. A real equanamity experientally evolved can have a poision imbibed to no effect...alcohol arsnic whatever. That is the symbolic representation to my personal opinion. Not that it is good to drink alcohol.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
ronnewmexico wrote:I am not equating the drinking of the water with the drinking of alcohol. What I am saying is the drinking of a poision to feel funny in the head(drinking alcohol) is the act of a madperson. As a child me and my friends would hyperventilate and then grab eachothers chests and hold them to pass out. I had a acquaintance who had a friend who liked the smell of diesel so he would chase after buses to smell the exhaust from their pipes....he did not last long. So such things are incredibly stupid and found in adults are actually a form of madness.
So I recount the story of the king. It is madness he did not drink at least initially.
All sorts of various substantiations and rationals can be made for drinking alcohol....the truth is it is drinking a poision to make your head feel funny....that is what it is, nothing more.
STupid to the point of madness or to be considered in a not mad society...a form of madness.
As spiritual practice...well certainly, one may as well chase after buses and smell their pipes very rarely. It would be exactly similiar. So it may perhaps be employed.
My assumption as to why alcohol is used in certain select practices is to portray the assumption that the diety or being has attained or realized the abiity of equanamity. NOt taught or read equanamity in a book but real equanamity in which one substance is as another substance as piss or crap may be considered food. Alcohol mainly a poision may not be a poison. A real equanamity experientally evolved can have a poision imbibed to no effect...alcohol arsnic whatever. That is the symbolic representation to my personal opinion. Not that it is good to drink alcohol.
Hello ! Usually You never understand what I say, so why should I say anything ?
The point I was making is that the metafor, or allegory, has a meaning, a meaning which the teachers are reluctent to say what it is. Every one is just supposed get the hint, so to say. Clear ??
svaha "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
How you consider me to be or if you care to converse is of no concern to me.
You made a statement in reference to my post, I thusly responded as is normal to clarify my position.
I do personally steer far clear of you, but will respond if you comment on my comments.
My initial post on this thread about four months ago was sequentially after yours but no comment on your comment or issues you expressed were referenced. It was just general comment on the initial issue as I have done some research on this particular and wanted to add input. My second comment these many months later was in response to or elicited by Lukes comment.
I in fact will not interact with many posters on this site so it is not to be taken as any great thing or that you are deficient. I mainly post on newly initiated threads when no comments have been offered as I find it quite sad when someone takes the time to comment and no response is ventured. If I initiate a thread, as it is mine I will generally respond to all comers, unless it totally deviates from point or it is just obviously not worth responding to.
My appologies to the initial poster for deviating from post. My habits are basically of no concern to anyone but a personal comment was made so I have responded to clarify my position on that though personal and deviation.
This is the personal comment from the above post I am referencing....."Hello ! Usually You never understand what I say, so why should I say anything
As a aside four months I'd guess is how long I have not accessed this site prior to last week.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
Thank You ! This time your writting is well structured, and clear, and to the point. It is a pleasure to read. I hope you would always have such clarity and well organised structure in your expression.
best wishes!
svaha "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
I have nothing to state to that....it is completely unrelated to the topic and appears personal in nature, a statement related to my personal abilities or nonabilities. Inappropriate to my view.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
Although not related directly to the OP, a post which relates to clarity of expression is sometimes necessary.
We don't always understand each other, and this may be because of a difference between the intended implication and the reader's inference, or a problem in the use of English - which is not the first language of some members.
If we deal with each other with Compassion, and ask for clarification or express gratitude for clarity of expression, we are maybe less likely to misunderstand each other.
