Tsongkhapafan wrote: smcj wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:Wisdom cannot be self-existent. It's a mental factor. It's an aspect of consciousness and it also depends upon its object.
What is your idea of what constitutes "Dharmakaya"?
Buddha possesses four bodies, two of which constitute the Truth Body or Dharmakaya. The Wisdom Truth Body is Buddha's omniscient mind which is a functioning thing and a conventional truth and the Nature Truth Body which is the emptiness of Buddha's mind and which is the ultimate true cessation. These, of course, are not two separate things but one entity, but they can be conceptually distinguished: one object with two names.
I've not heard the Dharmakaya broken down this way before. Buddha's omniscient mind, what you call the Wisdom Truth Body, is a conventional truth but is an aspect of the Dharmakaya?
It is the position of the Kagyupas, at least, that the Dharmakaya is unlike the "mind" of sentient beings--in fact, it is wisdom, and not a conventional mind. It is empty, of course, but of a completely different order of being than conventional mind. However, we also say that the nature of thoughts, and mental events, is the Dharmakaya.
Tsongkhapafan wrote:Milarepa said:
1You should know that all appearances are the nature of mind
And that mind is the nature of emptiness.
When the mind and its emptiness are completely freed from the two obstructions of delusions and their imprints, it becomes the Dharmakaya.
We would say the mind "ceases" when the obscurations are purified, or, better yet, that the "mind" is transformed into the nature of the Dharmakaya, when one realizes the nature of thoughts, appearances, etc., as essentially Wisdom--but the wisdom of the Dharmakaya, which cannot even really be called "Wisdom."
From Milarepa's Song, "Distinguishing the Provisional from the Definitive in the Contxt of Mahamudra, from: http://www.ktgrinpoche.org/songs/distin ... ahamudra-0
Milarepa is singing of the teaching of Marpa, received in turn from Maitripa:
However appearances might appear outside
Not realized, are delusory projections
Clinging to objects, that is what ties you down
For those who know, they're illusory appearance
For them, what appear to be objects are mind's resource
In the end, in fact, there is no such thing as appearance
And, being unborn dharmakaya, is utterly pure
He taught of its sacredness in the unborn dharmakaya
The workings of rational consciousness inside
Not realized, are ignorance itself
This is the root of all karma and all affliction
If realized, it's self-awareness wisdom
Here is where positive qualities spring full-blown
In the end, in fact, there is no such thing as wisdom
Let phenomena go as far as they go and no more
This is as far as they go and no more, he said
As far as this goes, it is consistent with a general Mahayana presentation. The talk of "Tantric view" and "tantric Mahamudra" is tangential to the Ideas of Yogacara and Madhyamika, in my opinion, because it is experiental, as Malcolm says, and not conceptual or constructed by rational mind.