The basis is one's unfabricated mind

bob
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by bob » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:45 am

Sherlock wrote:The whole idea that the are other beings who create samsara but are not part of it is counter to Buddhadharma.
FWIW, it might help to think of it as an adult class of beings creating a kindergarten environment for a child class of beings in need of behavior training. What I am suggesting is that there is a non-human class of beings who have created this stage for the human class of beings. It does not necessarily mean that the creator beings are beyond samsara (although at a certain level some might be considered "enlightened" beings by our limited descriptors).

:namaste:

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Sherab
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by Sherab » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:25 pm

bob wrote:
Sherlock wrote:The whole idea that the are other beings who create samsara but are not part of it is counter to Buddhadharma.
FWIW, it might help to think of it as an adult class of beings creating a kindergarten environment for a child class of beings in need of behavior training. What I am suggesting is that there is a non-human class of beings who have created this stage for the human class of beings. It does not necessarily mean that the creator beings are beyond samsara (although at a certain level some might be considered "enlightened" beings by our limited descriptors).

:namaste:
The idea that we are here in this world to be trained is weird. It implies that there is a purpose to samsara. That certainly is not Buddhist. If we (excluding Arya beings of course) have a purpose to be in samsara, then there is no need for us to bust our butts to be liberated from samsara.

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Malcolm
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by Malcolm » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:38 pm

bob wrote:
Yes, I understand that line of thinking, and at one time would have agreed. In a certain limited sense, there is even some truth to that, especially in regard to karma. We are all creators and creatures of each other, causing and bearing each other's burden within the sphere of our relations and so forth.

However, what I am referring to is the actual mechanics of this current manifestation which we are enjoying, known generally as "this world", which we as human beings have little hand in creating or maintaining (but are doing a pretty good job nevertheless of spoiling). We did not make the mountains, the rivers, or the tigers and elephants, or even our own bodies (which we think of as our own, at least).

In that sense, it is the work of another class of beings, just as is the sun, the moon, and the planets. Nor am I referring to some God-creator (although to most of us, these beings would appear god-like). In other words, there is a hierarchy, or ascending and descending classes of beings.

Now, I realize this comment might not align with the popular understanding of Buddhism, but nevertheless, it is the case. I am not trying to convince anyone of this, btw, but felt moved to insert it as a consideration. There is more to this world than meets the eye, or necessarily tallies with human philosophies or current scientific understanding.

:anjali:
The variety of the world is created by the collective karma of sentient beings, not by some demiurge/s.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by Malcolm » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:39 pm

bob wrote:
Sherlock wrote:The whole idea that the are other beings who create samsara but are not part of it is counter to Buddhadharma.
FWIW, it might help to think of it as an adult class of beings creating a kindergarten environment for a child class of beings in need of behavior training. What I am suggesting is that there is a non-human class of beings who have created this stage for the human class of beings. It does not necessarily mean that the creator beings are beyond samsara (although at a certain level some might be considered "enlightened" beings by our limited descriptors).

:namaste:

Right, this view is outside of Buddhadharma and has no place within it.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Sherab
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by Sherab » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:41 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sherab wrote: Seems very cittamitra to me.
Yogacara Madhyamaka, actually, ala Shantaraksita.
So the process by which the physical is produced by the mental is the same in yogacara madhyamaka is the same at that in cittamatra?

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Malcolm
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by Malcolm » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:04 pm

Sherab wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Sherab wrote: Seems very cittamitra to me.
Yogacara Madhyamaka, actually, ala Shantaraksita.
So the process by which the physical is produced by the mental is the same in yogacara madhyamaka is the same at that in cittamatra?
Yes, since the former takes the latter as relative truth. Kalaśīla's Madhyamakālaṃkārapañjikā states:

Since the five characteristics of external cause and condition and and the dominant characteristic are false, existing as mind-only [cittamatra] is only non-arising in the manner of representation-only [vijñapati-matra]. Therefore, whatever the non-arising of the madhyamaka school might be, that demonstrates it.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Sherab
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by Sherab » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:44 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sherab wrote:So the process by which the physical is produced by the mental is the same in yogacara madhyamaka is the same at that in cittamatra?
Yes, since the former takes the latter as relative truth. Kalaśīla's Madhyamakālaṃkārapañjikā states:

Since the five characteristics of external cause and condition and and the dominant characteristic are false, existing as mind-only [cittamatra] is only non-arising in the manner of representation-only [vijñapati-matra]. Therefore, whatever the non-arising of the madhyamaka school might be, that demonstrates it.
Would a madhyamika also hold the same explanation on how the physical is produce by the mental?

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Malcolm
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by Malcolm » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:50 pm

Sherab wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Sherab wrote:So the process by which the physical is produced by the mental is the same in yogacara madhyamaka is the same at that in cittamatra?
Yes, since the former takes the latter as relative truth. Kalaśīla's Madhyamakālaṃkārapañjikā states:

Since the five characteristics of external cause and condition and and the dominant characteristic are false, existing as mind-only [cittamatra] is only non-arising in the manner of representation-only [vijñapati-matra]. Therefore, whatever the non-arising of the madhyamaka school might be, that demonstrates it.
Would a madhyamika also hold the same explanation on how the physical is produce by the mental?

Even Abhidharma holds that matter is produced by mind, for example, when a being takes rebirth from the formless realm into the form realm, their physical body is created by their minds since here is no other cause for the matter their body is made up of.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Sherab
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by Sherab » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:54 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sherab wrote:Would a madhyamika also hold the same explanation on how the physical is produce by the mental?
Even Abhidharma holds that matter is produced by mind, for example, when a being takes rebirth from the formless realm into the form realm, their physical body is created by their minds since here is no other cause for the matter their body is made up of.
I started out with the Gelug tradition and was taught that beings in the formless realm, have a mind-made body. I did not get any sense that the mind-made body was physical. I was also taught that a result can come only from a similar cause, and because of that, as far as I understood, it was not held that something physical can come from something mental and vice versa. At any rate, I never felt at home with the Gelug's take on a number of issues.

Anyway, I have yet to come across a Madhyamika's explanation that say that the physical is produced by the mental. I posed the question in the hope that you may have come across something to the contrary to what I know and what I've learned while I was with the Gelugpas.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:09 pm

Malcolm wrote:
bob wrote:
Sherlock wrote:The whole idea that the are other beings who create samsara but are not part of it is counter to Buddhadharma.
FWIW, it might help to think of it as an adult class of beings creating a kindergarten environment for a child class of beings in need of behavior training. What I am suggesting is that there is a non-human class of beings who have created this stage for the human class of beings. It does not necessarily mean that the creator beings are beyond samsara (although at a certain level some might be considered "enlightened" beings by our limited descriptors).
Right, this view is outside of Buddhadharma and has no place within it.
I don't actually know what "Devas Wielding Power over the Creation of Others" (paranimmita-vasavatti deva) are, see:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... /loka.html
These devas enjoy sense pleasures created by others for them. Mara, the personification of delusion and desire, lives here.
but it sounds like they might be in a situation similar to bob's scenario.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

Andrew108
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by Andrew108 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:31 pm

There isn't really any proof that the physical is created by the mental. This philosophical notion is just a heuristic device to promote mindfulness. And like most buddhist philosophy, it shouldn't be taken too seriously.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

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Malcolm
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by Malcolm » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:33 pm

Sherab wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Sherab wrote:Would a madhyamika also hold the same explanation on how the physical is produce by the mental?
Even Abhidharma holds that matter is produced by mind, for example, when a being takes rebirth from the formless realm into the form realm, their physical body is created by their minds since here is no other cause for the matter their body is made up of.
I started out with the Gelug tradition and was taught that beings in the formless realm, have a mind-made body. I did not get any sense that the mind-made body was physical. I was also taught that a result can come only from a similar cause, and because of that, as far as I understood, it was not held that something physical can come from something mental and vice versa. At any rate, I never felt at home with the Gelug's take on a number of issues.

Anyway, I have yet to come across a Madhyamika's explanation that say that the physical is produced by the mental. I posed the question in the hope that you may have come across something to the contrary to what I know and what I've learned while I was with the Gelugpas.
This is because the Gelugpas adhere to a sautrantika version of relative truth in their sutra explanation.

The Sakyas, Kagyus and Nyingmas tend to favor a Yogacara Madhyamaka explanation of relative truth.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by Malcolm » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:41 pm

Andrew108 wrote:There isn't really any proof that the physical is created by the mental. This philosophical notion is just a heuristic device to promote mindfulness. And like most buddhist philosophy, it shouldn't be taken too seriously.

There is no proof the mental is created by the physical either.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Andrew108
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by Andrew108 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:58 pm

There is. Ask a brain surgeon. There is no first proof that mind and consciousness originated from matter, but there is proof that mental 'events' have a physical antecedent.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

Andrew108
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by Andrew108 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:04 pm

smcj wrote:Your posts read as if you think he [Malcolm] is denying the existence of the here and now of everyday reality. That's nihilism.
He uses a very narrow definition of reality. That's the problem. Theories of reality ( such as buddhadharma) use much broader definitions.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

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Sönam
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by Sönam » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:35 pm

Andrew108 wrote:There is. Ask a brain surgeon. There is no first proof that mind and consciousness originated from matter, but there is proof that mental 'events' have a physical antecedent.
No, only "some" mental events have a physical base. In fact brain is considered to be the storage unit of already passed mental events ... the hard disk in a way.

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

bob
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by bob » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:42 pm

Sherab wrote: The idea that we are here in this world to be trained is weird. It implies that there is a purpose to samsara. That certainly is not Buddhist. If we (excluding Arya beings of course) have a purpose to be in samsara, then there is no need for us to bust our butts to be liberated from samsara.
Would you want to remain in kindergarten perpetually? :thinking:

krodha
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by krodha » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:43 pm

Andrew108 wrote:There is. Ask a brain surgeon.
The good ol' Mustang Cave physicalist/materialist view.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:47 pm

bob wrote:Would you want to remain in kindergarten perpetually? :thinking:
Actually, I think it would beat growing up, if it truly were perpetual.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

ConradTree
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Re: The basis is one's unfabricated mind

Post by ConradTree » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:48 pm

Sherlock wrote:The notion of creators of the universe goes against even the Pali Suttas. You are simply a Hindu.
There is no Creator in the Upanishads or Samkhya which are the 2 main Hindu philosophies, Samkhya forming the basis of Saiva, Sakta and Vaishnava tantras.

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