Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind
Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind
Hi,
Whenever I try to do mahamudra meditations on exploring, observing and locating the mind, I always see my mind located inside my brain. I think this comes from having a western scientific education where mental functions are understood to be in the brain. Sometimes I do experience thoughts as being in front of my forehead, but for the most part I envision them in the brain. I feel kind of stuck here.
I am also starting to question what the definition of the "mind" is . I normally view it as the space in which thoughts arise and disappear. what do you think?
Whenever I try to do mahamudra meditations on exploring, observing and locating the mind, I always see my mind located inside my brain. I think this comes from having a western scientific education where mental functions are understood to be in the brain. Sometimes I do experience thoughts as being in front of my forehead, but for the most part I envision them in the brain. I feel kind of stuck here.
I am also starting to question what the definition of the "mind" is . I normally view it as the space in which thoughts arise and disappear. what do you think?
Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind
Are thoughts, feelings, sensations, etc... seperate to mind (as you seem to be implying)? If so where are they to be found?catlady2112 wrote:Hi,
Whenever I try to do mahamudra meditations on exploring, observing and locating the mind, I always see my mind located inside my brain. I think this comes from having a western scientific education where mental functions are understood to be in the brain. Sometimes I do experience thoughts as being in front of my forehead, but for the most part I envision them in the brain. I feel kind of stuck here.
I am also starting to question what the definition of the "mind" is . I normally view it as the space in which thoughts arise and disappear. what do you think?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind
Thanks for asking your questions. My answers are: I experience thoughts in my brain similar to viewing bacteria wiggling around in a microscope. The wiggling elements are the thoughts and the space they are inside of, are what I believe is the mind (mind as a container). Negative emotional feelings tend to appear in the stomach. Sensations usually are experienced at point of contact with the body (eyes, ears) except I know that scientifically the sensation is actually happening in the brain.Sherab Dorje wrote:Are thoughts, feelings, sensations, etc... seperate to mind (as you seem to be implying)? If so where are they to be found?
Last edited by omph on Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind
What you are taking as the mind is actually the 'mental consciousness' which of course is located in the brain. The mind that is talked about in Mahamudra is more like life itself. Substitute the term 'mind' with the term 'life' and you get closer to the actual meaning.catlady2112 wrote:Hi,
Whenever I try to do mahamudra meditations on exploring, observing and locating the mind, I always see my mind located inside my brain. I think this comes from having a western scientific education where mental functions are understood to be in the brain. Sometimes I do experience thoughts as being in front of my forehead, but for the most part I envision them in the brain. I feel kind of stuck here.
I am also starting to question what the definition of the "mind" is . I normally view it as the space in which thoughts arise and disappear. what do you think?
The Blessed One said:
"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind
What about when you stub your toe—where is your mind then?
Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind
That is not observing the mind. You´re definitely observing your brain, that´s why you´re ending up in it. Your brain is involved in thinking, but it´s not all there´s to it. But what you´re observing is definitely the brain as an organ, that´s why it feels as wiggling as any other organ you observe. You´re observing a feeling inside your body. Observing the mind is even more subtle.catlady2112 wrote: My answers are: I experience thoughts in my brain similar to viewing bacteria wiggling around in a microscope. The wiggling elements are the thoughts and the space they are inside of, are what I believe is the mind (mind as a container).
Best wishes
Gwenn
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!
Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind
So if I cut open your brain I will find feelings, sensations, and thoughts inside there?catlady2112 wrote:Thanks for asking your questions. My answers are: I experience thoughts in my brain similar to viewing bacteria wiggling around in a microscope. The wiggling elements are the thoughts and the space they are inside of, are what I believe is the mind (mind as a container). Negative emotional feelings tend to appear in the stomach. Sensations usually are experienced at point of contact with the body (eyes, ears) except I know that scientifically the sensation is actually happening in the brain.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind
Mind is what knows, the presence of consciousness. If you say you imagine/feel your brain to be your mind, that is not your mind, it is an image/feeling that the mind is aware of. So, if you want to locate the mind, find what knows.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind
According to my understanding in neurology, that is exactly true. You can stimulate different parts of the brain and get different emotional reactions/sensations.Sherab Dorje wrote:So if I cut open your brain I will find feelings, sensations, and thoughts inside there?
Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind
But are you usually cutting your brain open when feeling?catlady2112 wrote: You can stimulate different parts of the brain and get different emotional reactions/sensations.
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!
Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind
That is interesting. Reflecting on my own sitting practice, I am aware of thoughts passing through the mind, and also aware that this involves neural activity. Actually when the mind quietens right down, the amount of neural activity is considerably less. That has been shown by many studies of meditator's brain activities. I think there is something called an 'alpha-wave pattern' associated with meditative states.Catlady2112 wrote:I always see my mind located inside my brain. I think this comes from having a western scientific education where mental functions are understood to be in the brain. Sometimes I do experience thoughts as being in front of my forehead, but for the most part I envision them in the brain. I feel kind of stuck here.
But at the same time, from what you are saying, I think there is a strong element of visualization in your case. It is like you are visualizing the brain producing thoughts. There is nothing the matter with that, but I think it likely that this is a 'construction' or a 'vikalpa'. That is, because of your pre-disposition to accept the notion of the equivalence between brain-states and thoughts, that is what you are seeing. You're imagining the brain thinking and in that sense 'constructing' that activity.
The deeper question is, what is actually doing the seeing or constructing? I wouldn't necessarily try and answer that verbally, otherwise it might be more of the same kind of thing. I would treat it like an open question, something to ponder rather than a question to which there is an unambiguous answer. That would be my suggestion.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
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Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind
catlady2112 wrote:Hi,
Whenever I try to do mahamudra meditations on exploring, observing and locating the mind, I always see my mind located inside my brain. I think this comes from having a western scientific education where mental functions are understood to be in the brain. Sometimes I do experience thoughts as being in front of my forehead, but for the most part I envision them in the brain. I feel kind of stuck here.
I am also starting to question what the definition of the "mind" is . I normally view it as the space in which thoughts arise and disappear. what do you think?
Hey, I recommend the book The Practice of Mahamudra, if you've not read it. It's like 60 pages or something.
I'm pretty sure the typical instructions i've seen say that you should keep searching to see if indeed your mind IS inside your brain or what in meditation, rather than viewing this as "wrong", it is where you are at with the meditation. I think the point is to eliminate uncertainty about these questions (granted a BIG task lol), rather than to follow a set of prescribed instructions to get someone else correct answer. You can also try to determine if your thoughts are of the same substance, or fundamentally different than your mind, if you can find a root of the thoughts, and see if they emerge from the "space", or what...again I am not sure the meditation should be undertaken with the idea that you will finish and arrive at a correct answer, the point is just to keep discerning until there is some clarity...I think.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind
And what of beings that lack physical characteristics: Gods, hell beings, hungry ghosts? Where is their mind located? What of sentient beings that don't have brains: insects, crustaceans, etc...? Where is their mind located?catlady2112 wrote:According to my understanding in neurology, that is exactly true. You can stimulate different parts of the brain and get different emotional reactions/sensations.Sherab Dorje wrote:So if I cut open your brain I will find feelings, sensations, and thoughts inside there?
And what about karma? Which part of the brain is that stored in?
What of Chikkhai, Chonyid and Sidpa bardo experiences? The brain has well and truly stopped working during those (okay, maybe it hasn't completely ceased functioning in the Chikkhai bardo, but definitely in the other two).
And what happens during rebirth? Does the physical brain get reborn too? Do you take it along with you in a little box?
Of course ones mind is located in one's brain too, when one has a brain.
Last edited by Grigoris on Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind
The skandhas/kandhas model might be useful here...
You could start by asking where if anywhere ' mind' fits that model.
Or whether current western psychology is correct when it describes the Cartesian concept of 'mind' as simply a convention..
Then you could go on to asking if the skandhas/kandhas model and current psychology are not in fact saying something similar.. with allowances for their respective paradigms..
You could start by asking where if anywhere ' mind' fits that model.
Or whether current western psychology is correct when it describes the Cartesian concept of 'mind' as simply a convention..
Then you could go on to asking if the skandhas/kandhas model and current psychology are not in fact saying something similar.. with allowances for their respective paradigms..
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind
Brains and neurology are besides the point. Mahamudra is not a philosophy of mind but a practical method that is to be applied within one's personal sphere of experience. If there are bodily feelings one identifies with mind, those should be looked into using the correct path of analysis as presented in the Mahamudra instructions. Theorising about all that is a different thing.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind
Precisely so...but Instructions from a bone fide teacher...not book larnin'.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind
Sure! And if I shine light in your eyes, you will see it as well. If there's sound in your ears, you will hear it. Does that mean your mind is there? The senses and brain are obviously connected in creating experiences. Are these experiences mind?catlady2112 wrote:According to my understanding in neurology, that is exactly true. You can stimulate different parts of the brain and get different emotional reactions/sensations.Sherab Dorje wrote:So if I cut open your brain I will find feelings, sensations, and thoughts inside there?
What is the difference between a certain cognition, and awareness of that cognition? Is it in the same place? Does it have the same shape?
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena
Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind
It's amazing how many of you see mind and mental consciousness as being the same thing. They are different.
The Blessed One said:
"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind
Particularly as ' mind ' is simply a convention that describes a series of connected processes, rather than an entity which exists ' within ' something.
Last edited by Simon E. on Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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Re: Mahamudra meditation problem: locating the mind
When you locate this "mind" in the brain, what is it which is locating the "mind?"
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")