Great Doubt Zen

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seeker242
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Great Doubt Zen

Post by seeker242 »

What do people think it means when the wise zen men talk about "Great Doubt"? What does great doubt mean? Great doubt about what? The old saying goes "no doubt, no awakening, small doubt, small awakening, great doubt, great awakening". What is meant by that?

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Astus
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Re: Great Doubt Zen

Post by Astus »

Great doubt is the determination to get an answer and at the same time not accepting (i.e. doubting) whatever answer one finds in the process.

Some related things:

Robert E. Buswell: The Transformation of Doubt (Ŭijŏng) in Kanhwa Sŏn: The Testimony of Gaofeng Yuanmiao
Jeff Shore: Great Doubt: Getting Stuck & Breaking Through The Real Koan
What are the feeling of doubt, the ball of doubt, form into one piece, and the silver mountains and iron walls?

Also: Collected Works of Korean Buddhism, Vol. 3; p75-77 n132, n135

This looks like a good source, however, don't know where to get it: Gaofeng Yuanmiao's (1238-1295) "Three Essentials": The Nature and Function of Doubt in Chinese Kanhua Meditation
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Great Doubt Zen

Post by LastLegend »

seeker242 wrote:What do people think it means when the wise zen men talk about "Great Doubt"? What does great doubt mean? Great doubt about what? The old saying goes "no doubt, no awakening, small doubt, small awakening, great doubt, great awakening". What is meant by that?

:namaste:
Great doubt in oneself-use head to doubt head.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Great Doubt Zen

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Mind ground where seeds grow into flowers.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Great Doubt Zen

Post by Kaccāni »

Doubt can only be in what is found.
If everything is doubted, what remains?
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Re: Great Doubt Zen

Post by Wayfarer »

It is tangential to this thread, but there are interesting correspondences between Buddhism and philosophical scepticism. Not your common variety dogmatic scepticism which refuses to accept anything not proven by science, but scepticism in the original sense, which is 'witholding of judgement of what is not evident'.

There has been some recent scholarship on the Greek philosopher Pyrrho, who was the originator of what became the philosophical school of scepticism. Some scholars believe that Pyrrho travelled to India (probably Gandhara, centred around the Swat valley on the border of Pakistan and Afghanistan) and studied with the predominant Buddhist philosophical school in existence at the time, namely the Madhyamaka. (For the original journal article see Pyrrho and India, E. Flintoff.)

The subject is discussed at some length in McEvilly's The Shape of Ancient Thought. He elaborates on the resemblances between the Buddhist 'nirodha' (cessation) which is a technical term in Buddhist meditative training, and the ancient Greek 'epoché' meaning 'suspension of judgement'. (In fact the notion of epoché has had a long subsequent history in Western philosophy, appearing in Descartes' famous 'Cogito' and again in the 20th C as the basis of Husserl's phenomenology.)

There is also a book called Pyrrhonism: how the Ancient Greeks Re-invented Buddhism by Adrian Kuzninski (there seems to be a complete PDF copy here.)

As I say, tangential to the topic of 'the great doubt' in Zen practice, but nevertheless some interesting parallels.
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Re: Great Doubt Zen

Post by oushi »

Gwenn Dana wrote:Doubt can only be in what is found.
Not always so. You can doubt things you haven't found, precisely because you haven't found them.
Gwenn Dana wrote:If everything is doubted, what remains?
Doubt toward everything? :smile:
seeker242 wrote:What do people think it means when the wise zen men talk about "Great Doubt"?
I remember Hakuin writing a lot about doubt, in the context of koan practice. It makes sense, since every answer to a koan that brings doubt, is not the correct answer. While working with koan, doubt will naturally grow as the pool of possible answers decreases.

Pyrrho made a change in his perspective, excluding certainty as a default response. He started from doubt in every matter. We can assume many different benefits that come from such an approach. Applied doubt will soften guilt, hopes, fears, and attachments as a consequence, but it will also have the negative part. Doubt in the social values costs a lot.
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Re: Great Doubt Zen

Post by Kaccāni »

Gwenn Dana wrote:If everything is doubted, what remains?
Doubt toward everything? :smile:

Doubt doubt :tongue:
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Re: Great Doubt Zen

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Here's how the real skeptics escape that pitfall:
Wikipedia wrote:The skeptics used to refer to themselves as zetetikoi ("searchers"). They do not dogmatically assert the inability to know anything: the word skepsis means "inquiry, examination." According to them, only by refusing either to affirm or to deny the truth of what we cannot know, can ataraxia (=tranquility) be achieved.

Without actually claiming that we do not know anything, Pyrrhonism argues that the preferred attitude to be adopted is epoché, i.e., the suspension of judgment or the withholding of assent. It would be a contradiction to boldly assert that nothing can be known since that very proposition itself would then be elevated to the status of something which is known.
It is very much an application of Buddhist principles in my view.
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Re: Great Doubt Zen

Post by Kaccāni »

Hmm. For me it is usually sufficient to say that "ku" is only "mu shiki", not "mu ku" , not "mu", but "ku".

no-Thingness, where Thing involves any concept of what appears as awareness.
Ku does not disappear even when everything is doubted.
Not even when doubt is doubted.
Not even when ku is doubted.
Mu would be the opposite of ku.

That´s not nihilistic, since ku remains. It does not deny existence.
Within ku there still actions appear, but they are free from conceptual morality.

Taisen Deshimaru has a couple of neat paragraphs on that which have been collected in "heart of the heart sutra".

Best wishes
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Re: Great Doubt Zen

Post by oushi »

free from conceptual morality
Functioning in this way is not possible in society. Just a small remark.
Watch out what you are looking for. ;)
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Re: Great Doubt Zen

Post by Dan74 »

Doubt is inquiry, continually pressing further and refusing to pitch your tent anywhere. No matter what one finds, one does not abide there. Don't abide in an answer, don't abide in jhanas, don't abide in bliss, don't abide in emptiness, don't abide in realisation. Press on!
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Re: Great Doubt Zen

Post by Wayfarer »

Spot on.

(not that the opportunity to pitch my tent in any of those abodes has yet presented itself....:emb:
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Re: Great Doubt Zen

Post by oushi »

Dan74 wrote:Doubt is inquiry, continually pressing further and refusing to pitch your tent anywhere. No matter what one finds, one does not abide there. Don't abide in an answer, don't abide in jhanas, don't abide in bliss, don't abide in emptiness, don't abide in realisation. Press on!
Bringing up my doubts, I would say that this is not how Sakyamuni behaved. Moreover, it looks like a chase after something, which by definition, cannot be found. Quite painful trip.
If, on the other hand, we would swap "pressing further" with "not resisting the change", then...
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Re: Great Doubt Zen

Post by Kim O'Hara »

oushi wrote:
Dan74 wrote:Doubt is inquiry, continually pressing further and refusing to pitch your tent anywhere. No matter what one finds, one does not abide there. Don't abide in an answer, don't abide in jhanas, don't abide in bliss, don't abide in emptiness, don't abide in realisation. Press on!
Bringing up my doubts, I would say that this is not how Sakyamuni behaved. Moreover, it looks like a chase after something, which by definition, cannot be found. Quite painful trip.
If, on the other hand, we would swap "pressing further" with "not resisting the change", then...
Yes ... "pressing further" has suggestions or connotations of a continued search, presumably for certainty. Of all the formulations so far presented in this thread, I like "the suspension of judgment or the withholding of assent" best (that Wikipedia, he one smart fella! :smile: ).

:namaste:
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Re: Great Doubt Zen

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oushi wrote:
Dan74 wrote:Doubt is inquiry, continually pressing further and refusing to pitch your tent anywhere. No matter what one finds, one does not abide there. Don't abide in an answer, don't abide in jhanas, don't abide in bliss, don't abide in emptiness, don't abide in realisation. Press on!
Bringing up my doubts, I would say that this is not how Sakyamuni behaved. Moreover, it looks like a chase after something, which by definition, cannot be found. Quite painful trip.
If, on the other hand, we would swap "pressing further" with "not resisting the change", then...
Horses for courses, they say...

Sometimes a painful trip may well be what the doctor's ordered... When the disease runs so deep, cutting through all the way ain't gonna be easy.
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Re: Great Doubt Zen

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oushi wrote:Functioning in this way is not possible in society. Just a small remark.
Watch out what you are looking for. ;)
You should have warned me years ago, and even then I would not have heard it ;)
So I go with the flow. What comes, comes.
For conventional morality there was rarely a need yet, although sometimes it is tough for society to accept that you will not show certain emotions or attachments. As I´ve written in another thread, there is danger that certain parts will spit you out. It helps to have people in the environment who understand.
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Re: Great Doubt Zen

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oushi wrote: If, on the other hand, we would swap "pressing further" with "not resisting the change", then...
Doubt change? :-)
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Re: Great Doubt Zen

Post by oushi »

Kim O'Hara wrote: "the suspension of judgment or the withholding of assent"
I agree that this is an interesting statement, but after further analysis it appears that "suspension of judgement" kills initiative. Then, activity of an individual is based on responses, and urges. I will not judge full outcomes of such an attitude, because I do not know them.
Dan74 wrote:Sometimes a painful trip may well be what the doctor's ordered... When the disease runs so deep, cutting through all the way ain't gonna be easy.
It may be true, but I have doubt... even in doctors. Still, I move one, whether I want it or not. Even if I want to pitch my tent in a beautiful place, it cannot last long. I have no choice but to learn from this experience. Thus I see that striving for goals in future brings suffering into now, so I focus on removing suffering from now, not bothering about the future.
Gwenn Dana wrote:Doubt change? :)
Always.
Gwenn Dana wrote:You should have warned me years ago, and even then I would not have heard it ;)
Neither would I. I don't even listen to myself now.
Gwenn Dana wrote:So I go with the flow. What comes, comes.
Like we all, surrendering or resisting. But that does not remove the suffering of existence. :(
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Re: Great Doubt Zen

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Kim O'Hara wrote:
oushi wrote:
Dan74 wrote:Doubt is inquiry, continually pressing further and refusing to pitch your tent anywhere. No matter what one finds, one does not abide there. Don't abide in an answer, don't abide in jhanas, don't abide in bliss, don't abide in emptiness, don't abide in realisation. Press on!
Bringing up my doubts, I would say that this is not how Sakyamuni behaved. Moreover, it looks like a chase after something, which by definition, cannot be found. Quite painful trip.
If, on the other hand, we would swap "pressing further" with "not resisting the change", then...
Yes ... "pressing further" has suggestions or connotations of a continued search, presumably for certainty. Of all the formulations so far presented in this thread, I like "the suspension of judgment or the withholding of assent" best (that Wikipedia, he one smart fella! :smile: ).

:namaste:
Kim
Great doubt as you must know, is a Linchi/Rinzai Zen term, Kim, and koan work requires some form of pressing further. Initially it's an effort, great effort, later it is maybe more like what you or oushi describe.

Here's some good stuff from Ven Huifeng posted some years back on the other Wheel:
Paññāsikhara wrote:
Dan74 wrote:
PPPS.
Panasikkhara wrote:It is mainly with regard to the notion of not apprehending the object in the manner that one commonly thinks that it exists, the lack of letting the mind fully take up the objects of cognition. This leads to an absence of grasping on one hand, and also of conceptual proliferation, both about the object in question. Taken to its fullest, it is probably very akin to the notion of the mind which does not take up any object (cf. AN 11:9), totally unsupported mind.
Thank you for this - I haven't seen it put this way before. If I may ask - a totally unsupported mind sounds like quite a lofty aim, doesn't it? In meditating on a huatou (word-head) the Great Doubt stops the meditator from settling on a mental object, is that what you are saying? But I guess the mind is still supported (in the sense of "abiding") by a notion of a self and all the consequent reification?
Hi Dan :)

My phrasing above was mainly in the light of the fact that this is in a Theravada Forum, and it appeared that there was a fair amount of confusion, mainly about reading 疑情 yiqing as "doubt" which was mistakenly considered the opposite of 信 xin "faith / confidence". If I was just responding to a Son (Zen / Chan) practitioner such as yourself, I might have phrased it differently.

Thus, the "unsupported mind" is a term straight from the Pali Canon. In Chan, I'd rather saying "non-abiding mind" 無住心, which is mentioned by the Sixth Patriarch Huineng. Or, for a Son practitioner, (not that I know much about Son per se), I'm thinking that the now common English term "don't know" may be in order.

Anyway, like a lot of terms, we may use that term as both the practice, but also the result. (But personally I don't like to use "practice is realization" in the sense that Soto does.) Rather, like "emptiness" (even in the Pali canon), we can use this term to indicate a practice - the emptiness samadhi, the emptiness abiding, etc. - and also the result, the empty mind (empty of afflictions / conceptual proliferation). So, only part is a "lofty aim".

At first, one really needs to settle / abide the mind with some sort of samatha, calm it down. Then, pull up the object in question, and raise the word-head. eg. classic Chan would be to use recitation of Amitabha until one has some good Amitabha samadhi going on, and then ask - "Who is reciting Amitabha?" These "who" word-heads are great, because they then turn the subject ("me" / "I" and "what pertains to I") into the object of the "yiqing".

Most people would just say "I", "I recite Amitabha". But, then one begins to 參 (can) "investigate" this, deeper and deeper. For those who haven't much theoretical training in Buddhism, especially the notion of "not self", they may ask: "So, what is this I?" "Is this consciousness I?" "But this consciousness changes..." and so on. For those with the background, then the simple question "Who recites Amitabha?" Will be enough to raise the strong "yiqing". Rather than identifying as "I recite", "the name Amitabha is recited", and "this is recitation", one "empties the three aspects" and cuts off the basis of "self".

At first, this will be a kind of reified "not self". ie. rather than the usually conceptually proliferated idea of "me" and "mine", one instead overlays a different conceptual antidote of "not self". This is still concept versus concept, removing the false with the true. But, this conceptual "not self" is still merely a concept, one is still abiding in the antidote, still abiding in the word-head, so to speak, one needs to go deeper.

While it is still conceptualized, it isn't really "yiqing", but just rational thought. Only when it cuts out this inner verbalization, inner talk, does it fully develop into the yiqing. One may merely raise the word-head just enough to sustain this. For some, the raising of the word-head once, may be enough to sustain the yiqing for an hour, or hours, or even days. This takes some serious gongfu, however. For most beginners, maybe they'll have to raise it up every few minutes or so at least. haha! Just don't babble away and recite it like a mantra or something - totally, totally different kettle of fish!

Only when one removes the actual basis of "self" and "mine", will the conceptual proliferation end. It may take a lot of time. This is the first break through. Examples could be such as Master Hsu Yun, who in his six year "three steps and one prostration" pilgrimage, entered into deep samadhi while walking and on pilgrimage. He maintained the investigation and yiqing for a long, long time before he had his realization at Gaomin si in Yangzhou.
And here are some instructions worth listening to:

http://buddhismnow.com/2009/12/22/hua-tou/

http://buddhismnow.com/2011/02/24/dharm ... #more-2770
Last edited by Dan74 on Fri Apr 25, 2014 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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