Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Kunzang8
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Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Post by Kunzang8 »

Hi

What are the differences between the Sakya and Gelug lineages of VY? I understand that the Gelug VY originally came from Sakya but I heard there are differences in the practice itself. Within the limits of what can be discussed in a public forum could someone please explain to me what the main differences in practice between the two lineages? Thank you.
Malcolm
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Post by Malcolm »

Kunzang8 wrote:Hi

What are the differences between the Sakya and Gelug lineages of VY? I understand that the Gelug VY originally came from Sakya but I heard there are differences in the practice itself. Within the limits of what can be discussed in a public forum could someone please explain to me what the main differences in practice between the two lineages? Thank you.
The Gelug form has differences in how the guru yoga is performed (it is more elaborate), how the offerings are made, how the mantra is visualized, and so on. Primarily the Gelug form merely makes the sadhana practice more elaborate.

M
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lkug.pa
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Post by lkug.pa »

Did you check the site http://vajrayogini.com/index.php?

Both saddhanas are there, may be you can compare it by your self.


PD: Check out http://amuletforums.com/threads/vajrayo ... ism.32896/
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JKhedrup
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Post by JKhedrup »

When I met Lama Migmar in Europe and asked him this question he did say the Gelug Vajrayogini incorporated some longer elements in the offering section and different word choices in other parts of the sadhana, but that he felt there were no major, significant differences. I was a little surprised because I heard several Sakya lamas were not so happy with their VY practice being co-opted and popularized so widely by Gelug Lamas.(Lama Migmar is a scholar and teacher in the Sakya tradition).
Kunzang8
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Post by Kunzang8 »

lkug.pa wrote:Did you check the site http://vajrayogini.com/index.php?

Both saddhanas are there, may be you can compare it by your self.


PD: Check out http://amuletforums.com/threads/vajrayo ... ism.32896/

I tried to join Vajrayogini.com but got no reply. I thought this site has been abandoned>
Malcolm
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Post by Malcolm »

JKhedrup wrote:When I met Lama Migmar in Europe and asked him this question he did say the Gelug Vajrayogini incorporated some longer elements in the offering section and different word choices in other parts of the sadhana, but that he felt there were no major, significant differences. I was a little surprised because I heard several Sakya lamas were not so happy with their VY practice being co-opted and popularized so widely by Gelug Lamas.(Lama Migmar is a scholar and teacher in the Sakya tradition).
Basically, the pre-Pabhongkha tradition of VY is unchanged from the Sakya presentation. But Pabhongkha made a number of changes to the tradition based on his own intellectual ideas of how the practice should be brought into line with the broader Cakrasamvara tradition.

Since Pabhongkha made fundamental changes to the tradition, Sakya lineage masters will not bestow the uncommon Vajrayogini instructions on someone who has only received the tradition from Pabhongkha lineage. They [meaning HH Sakya Trizin, Jetsun Kusho and others] will require you to receive both a two-day empowerment in Hevajra or Cakrasamvara as well as Vajrayogini blessing from a major Sakya lineage holder as a prerequisite even if you have received these in Gelug.

Also, HH Dalai Lama is not fond of the fact that Vajrayogini has eclipsed more traditional Gelug practices and has stated this.
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Post by JKhedrup »

Yes, this is very clear. HHDL wishes the focus in Gelug to be on Tsongkhapa's traditional gsang bde jigs gsum- Guyasamaja, Chakrasamvara and Yamantaka. At the same time, he has done retreat on Vajrayogini and said it may be appropriate "if the lama sees the disciple has a special connection with it."

Also, Gsang Bde Jigs Gsum in the standard expectation of fully qualified scholars, and from time to time HHDL does recommend and give initiations into other practices, such as Kalachakra, of course, Hayagriva, Vajrakilaya and Chittamani Tara (which he gave an initiation for in Bloomington). HHDL mentioned the importance of Hayagriva especially and encourages this practice. In Geshe Sonam's alma mater Sera Jey, there is a yearly approximation retreat on Hayagriva with fire puja and the entire monastic assembly is expected to attend.

I would happily take a Sakya Vajrayogini initiation if the opportunity arose from HHST or Jetsun Kushok-la. The thing is, though, I am not sure if the Sakya ngondro and things would be required before taking this.(I am ashamed to say I am pretty ignorant about how things work in Sakya). It would be great to get the empowerment from the source tradition, and the lama who I took it from in Gelug recommends people to take initiations from HHST.

I was just surprised that Lama Migmar reacted to the question. I was very curious, and wanted to ask, but was half expecting a "Ah Yes the Gelugs co-opted one of our treasured inner practices bit", so his open response was a pleasant surprise. He actually said there were some interesting commentaries in the Gelug tradition, though of course, that the Sakyas "held the complete lineage with uncommon instructions etc." (paraphrasing as this was awhile ago).
Malcolm
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Post by Malcolm »

JKhedrup wrote:
I would happily take a Sakya Vajrayogini initiation if the opportunity arose from HHST or Jetsun Kushok-la. The thing is, though, I am not sure if the Sakya ngondro and things would be required before taking this.
The Sakyapas would not require you to complete ngondro before receiving this transmission.


I was just surprised that Lama Migmar reacted to the question. I was very curious, and wanted to ask, but was half expecting a "Ah Yes the Gelugs co-opted one of our treasured inner practices bit", so his open response was a pleasant surprise.
Lama Migmar (Khenpo, actually) is a great proponent of Vajrayogini as well as Tara. He feels that Vajrayogini is the ideal practice for this day and age, and as such, approves of its wide spread amongst Gelug, and anywhere else for that matter.
He actually said there were some interesting commentaries in the Gelug tradition, though of course, that the Sakyas "held the complete lineage with uncommon instructions etc." (paraphrasing as this was awhile ago).
Yes, in fact the most detailed commentary on the practice was composed by a Geshe who happened to be a disciple of Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo.

The fact of the matter however is that the Yogini practice is elaborated based on the Sakyapa understanding of tantra, and so therefore, reading such texts as rgyud sde spyi rnams and so on will assist in how one understands the practice.
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Post by JKhedrup »

Thanks Malcolm this is interesting information, I will definitely follow up. If HHST gives it in India it might be possible, but in Europe I have to work most weekends so it is more difficult. rgyud sde spyi rnams is definitely something I will look into. Can I get the text online or should I ask a friend of mine at Dzongsar Shedra to send it?
Malcolm
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Post by Malcolm »

JKhedrup wrote:Thanks Malcolm this is interesting information, I will definitely follow up. If HHST gives it in India it might be possible, but in Europe I have to work most weekends so it is more difficult. rgyud sde spyi rnams is definitely something I will look into. Can I get the text online or should I ask a friend of mine at Dzongsar Shedra to send it?

rgyud sde spyi rnams (Sonam Tsemo):

http://tbrc.org/link?RID=O01CT0026|O01C ... 981$W22271

rin po che ljong shing (Dragpa Gyaltsen):

http://tbrc.org/link?RID=O01CT0026|O01C ... 025$W22271

These two texts are like the sun and the moon of Sakya view and practice. If you read these, you will understood very perfectly the point of view of the Sakyapa school on everything from sutra to tantra.
JKhedrup
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Post by JKhedrup »

Dear Malcolm,

Thank you so much! I will work on these slowly, slowly. And Geshe Sonam will be grateful as well as he will be presenting Parting from the Four Attachments this Autumn and said that to prepare we should look at some Sakya texts together.
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Konchog1
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Post by Konchog1 »

Malcolm wrote:Basically, the pre-Pabhongkha tradition of VY is unchanged from the Sakya presentation. But Pabhongkha made a number of changes to the tradition based on his own intellectual ideas of how the practice should be brought into line with the broader Cakrasamvara tradition.
While we're on the topic...Why did Pabhongkha like Vajrayogini so much? Considering him, I would assume he would have been a strict 'Tsongkhapa's three' purist.

(Everyone, let's please not make this one of those threads)
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lama tsewang
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Post by lama tsewang »

is the book by sonam tsemo, the book translater as yoginis eye??
tsewang
Malcolm
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Post by Malcolm »

Konchog1 wrote:While we're on the topic...Why did Pabhongkha like Vajrayogini so much? Considering him, I would assume he would have been a strict 'Tsongkhapa's three' purist.

(Everyone, let's please not make this one of those threads)
Pabhongkha, when he was younger, had a close relationship with one of the Zimog Tulkus of Nalendra Phenpo, from whom he received most of the Sakya traditions he favored (such as four faced Mahākala, and so on).

Apparently (since I have not actually read his bio), he had a vision of Vajrayogini who encouraged him to merge the stream of Naro Khachö teachings with the view of Tsongkhapa.

In one sense, Yogini was an ideal practice for this -- it (unlike Lamdre) does not have any extensive instructions of view on its own, being purely a practice cycle. So in Sakya, Yogini is practiced in the broader context of the Lamdre view. One common approach is that Hevajra is used for working on creation stage, and Yogini for completion stage.

Secondly, Pabhongkha was a specialist in Cakrasamvara, and Yogini is the essence of Cakrasamvara practice. If one practices Yogini, the entire Cakrasamvara mandala is included.
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Post by Malcolm »

lama tsewang wrote:is the book by sonam tsemo, the book translater as yoginis eye??
tsewang

Yes. However the title is incorrect. There is no mention of a yogini's eye anywhere in the text.
I have also translated this text, but it is still in editing mode.
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Post by Wayne Verrill »

I apologize for the long delay in responding to the last post under this topic, but the matter has just come to my attention. The actual title of Sonam Tsemo's book appears on Volume 3, page 146, line 3 in the Sa-skya bKa'-'bum edition and on Volume 1, page 574, line 3 of the Lam-'bras Tshogs-bshad edition. The translation of this section is in the Epilogue on page 531. The actual Tibetan term is rnal-'byor mig, which literally translates as Yoga Eye. The fact that this is the title is confirmed by many commentators who refer to the root text by this name. Since Yoga Eye is a bit awkward in English, I took the liberty of changing it to Yogini's Eye, justified on the basis of the Hevajra Tantra being identified as a Yogini Tantra (see pages 290-297 in the translation). This issue was actually referred to on page 5 of the Translator's Introduction.

The other portion of the title appears on line 6 of the same pages in the editions cited above. The Tibetan is ma-lus-pa, literally "nothing left out", which corresponds to Comprehensive in the title . This covers the parts of the title not included on the original root text title page.

My e-mail address appears at the bottom of page 32 at the end of the Translator's Introduction. It is there to allow anyone who has questions, difficulties, disagreements, objections, etc. to be able to write to me to get my explanation before posting on a site such as this.

This is my first posting to this site, so I hope the formatting comes out ok.
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Post by Malcolm »

Wayne Verrill wrote:I apologize for the long delay in responding to the last post under this topic, but the matter has just come to my attention. The actual title of Sonam Tsemo's book appears on Volume 3, page 146, line 3 in the Sa-skya bKa'-'bum edition and on Volume 1, page 574, line 3 of the Lam-'bras Tshogs-bshad edition. The translation of this section is in the Epilogue on page 531. The actual Tibetan term is rnal-'byor mig, which literally translates as Yoga Eye. The fact that this is the title is confirmed by many commentators who refer to the root text by this name. Since Yoga Eye is a bit awkward in English, I took the liberty of changing it to Yogini's Eye, justified on the basis of the Hevajra Tantra being identified as a Yogini Tantra (see pages 290-297 in the translation). This issue was actually referred to on page 5 of the Translator's Introduction. .
It's "eye of yoga" as the Tibetan bears out, and it is not the common title of the text, rgyud sde spyi rnam is the common title. The full title of course is rgyud sde spyi'i rnam par gzhag pa bzhugs so .

The line in question says "rgyud sde spyi'i rnam par gzhag pa rnal 'byor mig", i.e. "The General Presentation of the Divisions of Tantra is the eye of yoga...", etc.

So I have to disagree with your contention that "Eye of Yoga" is the title in that line, rather, it is a descriptive of what the text is supposed to do, i.e. provide an eye on yoga.

Further, Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen refers to this text simply by the name rgyud sde spyi'i rnam par gzhag pa in the the rgyud sde spyi'i rnam par gzhag pa dang rgyud kyi mngon par rtogs pa'i stong thun sa bcad.

The Hevajra Tantra is not merely an Yogini Tantra, it is also a yogatantra, for this reason Loppon Rinpoche explains that Hevajra is non-dual tantra based on this passage from Vajrapañjara:
  • The Hevajra yogatantra
    was explained by the Victor first.
    Later the yoginītantra
    similarly is for the conversion of women.
Loppon Rinpoche adds:
  • True, it may be called “ḍākinītantra”. That does not contradict a nondual method and discriminating wisdom tantra because discriminating wisdom tantra is necessary in nondual tantra.
When Lowo Khenchen [rgyud sde spyi rnam gsal byed sogs, pg. 18], defines the reason for the name rgyud sde spyi'i rnam par gzhag pa, he states, "Loppon Sonam Tsemo's composition has four synonyms: 1) The tantra division 2) the general presentation 3) an introduction to all tantras 4) the eye of yoga."

However, that does not justify "the yogini's eye" as a title. In fact, the formal title given in the colophon is actually, The General Presentation of the Tantra Divisions, an Introduction to all
Tantras.


If you were to retitle the book, The Eye of Yoga would be a better choice, in my opinion.
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Post by WeiHan »

I have the blessings and teachings of VY from both lineages and I must say they are almost identical except that the Gelug sadhana is more elaborated in certain section such as the inner offering etc...

The teaching in the Gelug tradition is also more elaborated and seems to be more inspiring because they tend to go all way out to propagate on the benefits of this practice then the Sakya tradition. For example, In the Sakya's teaching, disciple was chided for blaming the efficacy of the mantra while it is their own fault for not concentrating well during the mantra recitation. On the contrary, in the Gelug teachings, it promises that even reciting the mantra with weak concentration will bring results and it is the only mantra that has this advantage in this degenerate age. In the Gelug teachings, it promises many more mundane benefits for reciting the mantra while the Sakya teachings avoid all such. The Gelug teaching also make comparison with other tantra and practices so as to illustrate the supremacy of this practice while the Sakya teaching do not...

Overall, I love this practice very much. It seems that every siddhis (ordinary and supramundane) can be attained simply by reciting that mantra according to the Gelug teaching.

However, my doubt is that if even mundane siddhis can be easily attained thru this practice, then why does the Sakya need the other Golden Dharmas which bundled together with this practice in the well known "13 Golden Dharmas"? For example, since VY is effective gaining wealth, then do you still need a Red Jambala?
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Post by Malcolm »

WeiHan wrote: For example, In the Sakya's teaching, disciple was chided for blaming the efficacy of the mantra while it is their own fault for not concentrating well during the mantra recitation.
Yes, this is must be the case.

On the contrary, in the Gelug teachings, it promises that even reciting the mantra with weak concentration will bring results and it is the only mantra that has this advantage in this degenerate age.
The root tantra states that reciting the mantra of the Vajra Queen has certain efficacies, but no where does it say that one may do so with distraction.

The Gelug teaching also make comparison with other tantra and practices so as to illustrate the supremacy of this practice while the Sakya teaching do not...
Again, this is not true.

However, my doubt is that if even mundane siddhis can be easily attained thru this practice, then why does the Sakya need the other Golden Dharmas which bundled together with this practice in the well known "13 Golden Dharmas"? For example, since VY is effective gaining wealth, then do you still need a Red Jambala?
Yogini is a practice for excellent siddhi, the other deities in the 13 are mostly for common siddhis.
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Re: Difference between Sakya & Gelug Vajrayogini

Post by Sherlock »

Vajrayogini was not one of Tsongkhapa's core practices.

Why do Gelugpas prefer it to his heart practices? :pig:
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