Does Chan/Seon/Zen practice mudra?

[ShineeSeoul]

Hi everybody

I did saw video by Chan Monk practicing hand mudra?

so I was wondering if Mudra is practiced in Chan/Seon/Zen?

Video

phpBB [video]

[BrianG]

Hi everybody

I did saw video by Chan Monk practicing hand mudra?

so I was wondering if Mudra is practiced in Chan/Seon/Zen?

Video

phpBB [video]

Mudras are practiced by all three Vehicles, to one extent or another.

[Astus]

It depends on what you mean by "practising mudra". As far as I know, in Chinese Buddhism it is a ritual element of certain ceremonies.

[ShineeSeoul]

Hi everybody

I did saw video by Chan Monk practicing hand mudra?

so I was wondering if Mudra is practiced in Chan/Seon/Zen?

Video

phpBB [video]

Mudras are practiced by all three Vehicles, to one extent or another.

really? even theravada? what they call it in theravada?

[ShineeSeoul]

It depends on what you mean by "practising mudra". As far as I know, in Chinese Buddhism it is a ritual element of certain ceremonies.

what they call it? do seon buddhism also use mudras?

I guess zen buddhism they do it

[ShineeSeoul]

Why Mudras always associated with Esoteric Buddhism?

[udawa]

Anjali mudra is common to all Buddhist traditions.

[ShineeSeoul]

Anjali mudra is common to all Buddhist traditions.

I know this one...I mean the moving mudras

[seeker242]

do seon buddhism also use mudras?

Cosmic or Dhyana mudra is used during sitting meditation practice. That's the most I've ever seen them used, but I've never been to korea myself.

[Meido]

Instead of asking if Chan/Zen/Son does xyz, when discussing specific practices it's generally best to ask if such-and-such line of transmission or teacher does. You really never know what you're going to find taken up as supporting practices, depending on the interests and capacities of each line's forebears.

In Zen, I have seen in some Soto kuyo (puja/ceremony) that the chief officiant forms mudras with hands hidden under the kesa. In Rinzai kuyo, I have seen different but related things which I've never witnessed Soto priests doing. In our line here we have a collection of mantra/mudra practices intended for specific situations...but I know for a fact these have their origin in the particular training experience of one of the teachers in our line, so I doubt you'd find them elsewhere. Etc., you get the picture.

~ Meido

[Seishin]

Chinese Chan Buddhism tends to contain elements of practice from other schools, such as chanting the name of Amitabha Buddha. I believe in Richard Payne's book "Tantric Buddhism in East Asian", he suggests that Chinese Chan schools absorbed elements of esoteric Buddhism, adding them to their own practice. As Rev Meido said, how much (or how little) of these esoteric elements are practiced various greatly from temple to temple, teacher to teacher.

As to you question of why mudras are associated with esoteric Buddhism: mudras are practiced as a path to enlightenment in esoteric Buddhism (one of the three vajras - mantras and visualisation/mandala being the other two). In other schools, such as zen, they are seen as part of ritual, not a path to enlightenment.

In gassho,
Seishin

[Meido]

In other schools, such as zen, they are seen as part of ritual, not a path to enlightenment.

Just to say that this distinction of ritual vs. path would not be accepted in Zen, due to its understanding of the purpose of kuyo/okyo (beyond generation/dedication of merit, mundane benefits and so on).

Essentially: it is not specific practices that define the Zen path, but rather an approach to practice. This is important to grasp if one is to make sense of statements that Zen is ultimately method-less, a One Vehicle approach transcending the 3 vehicles, not dependent upon texts, not bound by distinctions of exoteric vs. esoteric, etc.

~ Meido

[Seishin]

Essentially: it is not specific practices that define the Zen path, but rather an approach to practice. This is important to grasp if one is to make sense of statements that Zen is ultimately method-less, a One Vehicle approach transcending the 3 vehicles, not dependent upon texts, not bound by distinctions of exoteric vs. esoteric, etc.

~ Meido

Thank you Rev Meido, I hadn't considered this. And sadly I lack the linguistics to adequately explain my thoughts.

In gassho,
Seishin

[ShineeSeoul]

do seon buddhism also use mudras?

Cosmic or Dhyana mudra is used during sitting meditation practice. That's the most I've ever seen them used, but I've never been to korea myself.

Thank you for the information, I didn't know about this

[ShineeSeoul]

Chinese Chan Buddhism tends to contain elements of practice from other schools, such as chanting the name of Amitabha Buddha. I believe in Richard Payne's book "Tantric Buddhism in East Asian", he suggests that Chinese Chan schools absorbed elements of esoteric Buddhism, adding them to their own practice. As Rev Meido said, how much (or how little) of these esoteric elements are practiced various greatly from temple to temple, teacher to teacher.

As to you question of why mudras are associated with esoteric Buddhism: mudras are practiced as a path to enlightenment in esoteric Buddhism (one of the three vajras - mantras and visualisation/mandala being the other two). In other schools, such as zen, they are seen as part of ritual, not a path to enlightenment.

In gassho,
Seishin

Thanks

so thats mean mudra is part of three vajra...but for zen or seon its just ritualistic, rather than about enlightment

[ShineeSeoul]

In other schools, such as zen, they are seen as part of ritual, not a path to enlightenment.

Just to say that this distinction of ritual vs. path would not be accepted in Zen, due to its understanding of the purpose of kuyo/okyo (beyond generation/dedication of merit, mundane benefits and so on).

Essentially: it is not specific practices that define the Zen path, but rather an approach to practice. This is important to grasp if one is to make sense of statements that Zen is ultimately method-less, a One Vehicle approach transcending the 3 vehicles, not dependent upon texts, not bound by distinctions of exoteric vs. esoteric, etc.

~ Meido

is it important to practice mudra in zen or seon? as path enlightment

[Meido]

Thank you Rev Meido, I hadn't considered this.

Thanks also to you, Rev Seishin. I appreciate the exchange.

is it important to practice mudra in zen or seon? as path enlightment

If one's Zen teacher transmits practices that involve mudra (or anything else), what is important to know is how to encompass that within the Zen path. That is, to grasp how a practice fulfills one or more of the three general purposes of all practices (from the Zen standpoint): to remove obstructions to recognizing one's nature, and/or to directly point it out, and/or to embody a seamless upwelling of that recognition.

In other words, "Direct pointing at the mind, seeing nature, becoming Buddha".

~ Meido

[Seishin]

Thanks

so thats mean mudra is part of three vajra...but for zen or seon its just ritualistic, rather than about enlightment

In esoteric Buddhism it isn't just a ritual, or a prayer or whatever. This is what I'm (inadequately) trying to explain. The three vajras (aka 三密 san mitsu in Japanese) is a direct path to enlightenment.

[ShineeSeoul]

Thank you Rev Meido, I hadn't considered this.

Thanks also to you, Rev Seishin. I appreciate the exchange.

is it important to practice mudra in zen or seon? as path enlightment

If one's Zen teacher transmits practices that involve mudra (or anything else), what is important to know is how to encompass that within the Zen path. That is, to grasp how a practice fulfills one or more of the three general purposes of all practices (from the Zen standpoint): to remove obstructions to recognizing one's nature, and/or to directly point it out, and/or to embody a seamless upwelling of that recognition.

In other words, "Direct pointing at the mind, seeing nature, becoming Buddha".

~ Meido

thanks...it seems mudra in zen or seon depend highly on the teacher, rather than being essential part of it like in vajrayana for example

[ShineeSeoul]

Thanks

so thats mean mudra is part of three vajra...but for zen or seon its just ritualistic, rather than about enlightment

In esoteric Buddhism it isn't just a ritual, or a prayer or whatever. This is what I'm (inadequately) trying to explain. The three vajras (aka 三密 san mitsu in Japanese) is a direct path to enlightenment.

I understand..Thanks