Finding a teacher...

[gnegirl]

This is better than the soaps!

It is a soap...

soap that washes the stains of delusion.. we can only hope!

So the soap is Life-Bouy then! ('A Christmas Story' movie reference)

All i will add to this thread is that if one wants to tread the into the path of the vajrayana, its a one-way trip, either up or down. This is why is important to examine the guru, and maybe up to 12 years or so. Then when doubt is no more, commit to the path from the heart and just do it.

The reason this stuff is done is to benefit parent sentient beings. If ego is out of the way, what else is there to do? Who can show the way to cut through to this? No one but the Guru....

Now, about that diet coke... all this popcorn has made me thirsty!

[ground]

All i will add to this thread is that if one wants to tread the into the path of the vajrayana, its a one-way trip, either up or down.

That has been said as to the degrees of freedom of "potential" in the thread Potential too. So it seems to be nothing special but general.

However if you claim that "either ... or ..." shall mean a determination at one point of the path which cannot be revised then you are actually denying dependent origination.

Kind regards

[Chaz]

Chaz I just reviewed the thread and didn't see any ad hominems or insults.

Then you don't know what an ad hominem is.

This all starts with Tmingyur stating:

I am inclined to say "As soon as you have received benefit from a teacher, immediately leave him" ... which of course does not comply with vajrayana tenets.

This followed by Shearb who says:

The things that come out from you never ceases to amaze me.

This is clearly ad hominem. It is an attack on the person and not what the persan has said.

This is followed by an apology by Tmingyur, but, of course this isn't enough.

Following that, our friend Tilopa says:

I think our precious TMingyur must be from another planet.

Ad Hominem again.

This dispairages TMingyur personally. while not offering challenge to or refutation of Tmingyur's earlier statement.

It also constitutes blatant insult, but that, of course, is another matter.

So, we have two blatant ad homs and an insult and that was on the first page only.

[Chaz]

If there are circumstances such as the one above, where his actions may hold more weight than he imagines, is it a bad thing to suggest he tread more lightly?

If you are one to say such things, no.

I don't see any negativity on either side of this, I just think you may have a personal beef with me because of my contributions in the Reggie Ray thread.

In that thread, which you began,

NO. I did not begin that thread. It was spun off of another thread by one of the mods without consulting me first (not that I believe they have to). My post merely rests at the top.

I merely added to the dialogue about his public statements about rebirth and karma. However, I never suggested anyone that's taken Ray as their teacher abandon him...if they've had wangs from him then they are tethered to him for life.

In a metaphysical sense, maybe. As humans we are both well-favored and free. We can do as we please. It may not have the best karmic outcome, but noone's holding a gun to anyone's head to stay with anyone.

Vows are vows. I take them very seriously.

I guess so.

Apparently Tmingyur either doesn't understand tantric level vows or he is suggesting people break them. Either way it's better to simply stay silent.

If everyone followed that advice - to not speak until others agree that we know what we're talking about - then this would be a very quiet place.

[Adamantine]

If there are circumstances such as the one above, where his actions may hold more weight than he imagines, is it a bad thing to suggest he tread more lightly?

If you are one to say such things, no.

If you believe I'm not, please explain why: I'm always looking for help with self-examination.

I merely added to the dialogue about his public statements about rebirth and karma. However, I never suggested anyone that's taken Ray as their teacher abandon him...if they've had wangs from him then they are tethered to him for life.

In a metaphysical sense, maybe. As humans we are both well-favored and free. We can do as we please. It may not have the best karmic outcome, but noone's holding a gun to anyone's head to stay with anyone.

No, it's worse than a gun.. if you break your samaya intentionally without remorse or apology, you'll be shot straight into the lowest realms.

Vows are vows. I take them very seriously.

I guess so.

If you want to benefit beings, and make progress on the path, vows are very powerful methods. . . in Vajrayana they become more potent on many levels.

Apparently Tmingyur either doesn't understand tantric level vows or he is suggesting people break them. Either way it's better to simply stay silent.

If everyone followed that advice - to not speak until *snip* we know what we're talking about - then this would be a very quiet place.

It would be a place with a much higher degree of clarity and shorter threads.

[Adamantine]

The things that come out from you never ceases to amaze me.

This is clearly ad hominem. It is an attack on the person and not what the persan has said.

It's not at all clear to me: that statement appears to be directed precisely at Tmingyurs words "the things that come out from you" which in an anonymous online textual forum obviously refer to written words, not the person themselves. They are merely stating that they are generally surprised by what the person has said.. how is this an attack on the person, and not what they've said? It's not even an attack, regardless, it's only claiming a subjective reaction, not an objective judgment.

Following that, our friend Tilopa says:

I think our precious TMingyur must be from another planet.

Ad Hominem again.

This dispairages TMingyur personally. while not offering challenge to or refutation of Tmingyur's earlier statement.

It also constitutes blatant insult, but that, of course, is another matter.

So, we have two blatant ad homs and an insult and that was on the first page only.

Again, I read this as a friendly tease, most people wouldn't perceive someone saying they're possibly of more cosmic then earthly origins as a terrible insult. It could equally be viewed as a complement. . In my community, it would be seen the latter way. . these terms are highly subjective, and context dependent. Tilopa uses the word "precious" before Tmingyurs name, which in Tibetan lineage is the highest honorific. I did not read this as mocking, but as a context ensuring that it was read as a friendly/loving tease. It doesn't seem to me that anyone was attacking Tmingyur, or insulting him, and he certainly didn't appear to be bothered. So what's the story with you and the extreme reactions?

[Adamantine]

All i will add to this thread is that if one wants to tread the into the path of the vajrayana, its a one-way trip, either up or down.

That has been said as to the degrees of freedom of "potential" in the thread Potential too. So it seems to be nothing special but general.

However if you claim that "either ... or ..." shall mean a determination at one point of the path which cannot be revised then you are actually denying dependent origination.

Kind regards

Not quite the same as your general reading of it. . .It is an express train- In Vajrayana the chela is likened to a snake in a bamboo tube-- you'll either shoot straight to Buddhahood or directly to the hell realms. There is no in-between any longer. In the general 'rising and falling' that you speak of, there's many gradations from god, demi-god, animal, preta, human once again, etc.

[Tilopa]

Following that, our friend Tilopa says:

I think our precious TMingyur must be from another planet.

Again, I read this as a friendly tease...

Yes that's exactly what it was.
Everyone should take a deep breath and relax a bit because even an internet forum lacks inherent existence and is illusory and dream like. Don't abandon your sense of humor just because you're now a Buddhist.

[gnegirl]

All i will add to this thread is that if one wants to tread the into the path of the vajrayana, its a one-way trip, either up or down.

That has been said as to the degrees of freedom of "potential" in the thread Potential too. So it seems to be nothing special but general.

However if you claim that "either ... or ..." shall mean a determination at one point of the path which cannot be revised then you are actually denying dependent origination.

Kind regards

Not quite the same as your general reading of it. . .It is an express train- In Vajrayana the chela is likened to a snake in a bamboo tube-- you'll either shoot straight to Buddhahood or directly to the hell realms. There is no in-between any longer. In the general 'rising and falling' that you speak of, there's many gradations from god, demi-god, animal, preta, human once again, etc.

Yes, the story of Rudra comes to mind as to what can happen to one who falls:

http://www.khandro.net/deity_tale_of_two.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Inge]

Not quite the same as your general reading of it. . .It is an express train- In Vajrayana the chela is likened to a snake in a bamboo tube-- you'll either shoot straight to Buddhahood or directly to the hell realms. There is no in-between any longer. In the general 'rising and falling' that you speak of, there's many gradations from god, demi-god, animal, preta, human once again, etc.

If the image of the snake in the bamboo is correct, this must mean that at death you either attain Buddhahood or take rebirth in the hell realms. So someone entering Vajrayana will never again experience the hungry ghost, animal, human, asura of god realm. This must also mean that nobody that are now human can ever in any previous lifetime have practiced Vajrayana.

Do you agree with this?

Edit: or are the human realm within the bamboo tube?

[Caz]

Not quite the same as your general reading of it. . .It is an express train- In Vajrayana the chela is likened to a snake in a bamboo tube-- you'll either shoot straight to Buddhahood or directly to the hell realms. There is no in-between any longer. In the general 'rising and falling' that you speak of, there's many gradations from god, demi-god, animal, preta, human once again, etc.

If the image of the snake in the bamboo is correct, this must mean that at death you either attain Buddhahood or take rebirth in the hell realms. So someone entering Vajrayana will never again experience the hungry ghost, animal, human, asura of god realm. This must also mean that nobody that are now human can ever in any previous lifetime have practiced Vajrayana.

Do you agree with this?

Edit: or are the human realm within the bamboo tube?

Good point, It would be odd as well considering refuge vows guarentee freedom from lower rebirth...Not to mention that not everyone accomplishes full enlightenment being a Vajrayana practitoner generally unless your committed to doing a nice long retreat. Someone would have to pull out some tantric scriptures to discern that one

[gnegirl]

If i fail to accomplish the path in this lifetime, i have faith in my lineage and in my Guru that eventually, accomplishment will happen, maybe even in the death bardo. We are in the degenerate age, but this is my small hope, deluded sentient being that I am.

[Adamantine]

Not quite the same as your general reading of it. . .It is an express train- In Vajrayana the chela is likened to a snake in a bamboo tube-- you'll either shoot straight to Buddhahood or directly to the hell realms. There is no in-between any longer. In the general 'rising and falling' that you speak of, there's many gradations from god, demi-god, animal, preta, human once again, etc.

If the image of the snake in the bamboo is correct, this must mean that at death you either attain Buddhahood or take rebirth in the hell realms. So someone entering Vajrayana will never again experience the hungry ghost, animal, human, asura of god realm. This must also mean that nobody that are now human can ever in any previous lifetime have practiced Vajrayana.

Do you agree with this?

Edit: or are the human realm within the bamboo tube?

I'm interested to know the answer myself-- from
a qualified teacher.. I do think the bamboo tube may be
a generalization itself, expressing the multiplication of karmic weight
and power that Vajrayana vows bring. Obviously it's not
strictly true that at death you'll only go straight to one
or the other-- certain practice texts guarantee enlightenment
within 7 lives for even the least meticulous of disciples...some say 14 lives if my memory serves-- so being born
again as a human being with the leisures and endowments, with karmic connection to resume the prior live's practice- this
is still heading directly up in the bamboo tube. .
and of course Buddhahood in this life is for the highest capacity. They both
require keeping the samaya though...
Let's just say the weight of your karma becomes that
much more magnified--- for better or worse. My best guess is
you'll either be born again in circumstances that
will reunite you with the guru in the human realm--or
go directly to a pureland-- either way to perfect your practice..
Or full enlightenment in this life or in the bardo. And if you break samaya
then straight to hell. There's probably room
for subtle extenuating circumstances-- this is a question for
a Khenpo or Geshe, or a master that can see
these things directly. But the snake in the bamboo tube
is the most oft quoted metaphor in teaching the potency
and pitfalls Vajrayana.

[Adamantine]

However if you claim that "either ... or ..." shall mean a determination at one point of the path which cannot be revised then you are actually denying dependent origination.

I'm not quite sure how you meant this I am realizing.. by "a determination at one point of the path which cannot be revised".

Did you intend that to mean as in eternal damnation, or permanent Buddhahood? This is how I interpreted it. The vows themselves are predicated on dependent origination. There is no eternal damnation as such, in Buddhism.. you can look to the story of Rudra that was just linked to for an example of the continuity of lives following a severe breach of samaya. However, as a Buddha you will not fall again.

[ground]

All i will add to this thread is that if one wants to tread the into the path of the vajrayana, its a one-way trip, either up or down.

That has been said as to the degrees of freedom of "potential" in the thread Potential too. So it seems to be nothing special but general.

However if you claim that "either ... or ..." shall mean a determination at one point of the path which cannot be revised then you are actually denying dependent origination.

Kind regards

Not quite the same as your general reading of it. . .It is an express train- In Vajrayana the chela is likened to a snake in a bamboo tube-- you'll either shoot straight to Buddhahood or directly to the hell realms. There is no in-between any longer. In the general 'rising and falling' that you speak of, there's many gradations from god, demi-god, animal, preta, human once again, etc.

I find this a view which seems to appear in different contexts in vajrayana: sort of absolutistic deterministic view. One may argue that this is special skillful means since it is the nature of beings to hope for the better (and forget about the worse), fostering the view "If I do exactly that and do not deviate in the slightest from what the Guru instructs then buddhahood will inevitably ensue". That is a skillful view in that it engenders effort, resolve but the other side of it is that it may also be unskillful in that it engenders clinging to views, rituals, fostering the view that progress on the path depends on some outer "given" rules and on formalisms.

Kind regards

[Adamantine]

Yes, the story of Rudra comes to mind as to what can happen to one who falls:

http://www.khandro.net/deity_tale_of_two.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The accounts I'm familiar with leave a few more details: he became a type of powerful warlord / bandit / pimp as a result of his misinterpretation of the Dharma teaching, and when he was told that he had misunderstood the teaching by his own Guru, he was so instantaneously angered that he immediately pulled out his sword and lopped of his Guru's head. This was the powerfully potent samaya break. It could have gone the other way if he honored his Guru's wisdom and repented with humility for his own stupidity.

[ground]

However if you claim that "either ... or ..." shall mean a determination at one point of the path which cannot be revised then you are actually denying dependent origination.

I'm not quite sure how you meant this I am realizing.. by "a determination at one point of the path which cannot be revised".

Did you intend that to mean as in eternal damnation, or permanent Buddhahood? This is how I interpreted it. The vows themselves are predicated on dependent origination. There is no eternal damnation as such, in Buddhism.. you can look to the story of Rudra that was just linked to for an example of the continuity of lives following a severe breach of samaya. However, as a Buddha you will not fall again.

The practitioner will always be subject to dependent origination until cessation of afflictive obscuration is attained. A "vow" or "commitment" or "samaya" or "entry into vajrayana" does not equal this attainment.

Kind regards

[Adamantine]

I find this a view which seems to appear in different contexts in vajrayana: sort of absolutistic deterministic view.

This is probably through a lack of looking deeply enough into the matter.

[ground]

I find this a view which seems to appear in different contexts in vajrayana: sort of absolutistic deterministic view.

This is probably through a lack of looking deeply enough into the matter.

Well I rely on observing the debates among vajrayanists. There is not better evidence.

Kind regards

[ground]

Well I rely on observing the debates among vajrayanists. There is not better evidence.

Kind regards

See, I feel that actually these guys that discuss all their strange views in internet forums under the header of "vajrayana" actually are breaking their samaya.

You may even read views which assign some sort of "magic power" to some gurus or deluded beings asserting that they are somehow "haunted by demons" ... all this I consider to be an outflow which seems to be specific for the danger involved with vajrayana. I do not assert that these views are vajrayana views but I am asserting that these views are manifestations of beings going astray after contacting vajrayana views.

Kind regards