You Are Already Enlightened

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Ayu
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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by Ayu » Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:47 am

smcj wrote:
Huang Po says the cessation of conceptual thought requires great effort. According to the Dzogchen root text, effort only creates more suffering in Samsara. Which is correct? Somebody please tell me and explain why.
Answers:

Huang Po is correct--here in the Zen/Chan forum.

"The Supreme Source" is correct--in the Dzogchen forum.

At least that's according to the ToS. :rules:

If you ask me in "Exploring Buddhism" I'll have to admit I don't know. :shrug:
Maybe here we could try to bear different buddhist-traditional views respectfully alongside one another.
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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by DGA » Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:42 pm

steve_bakr wrote:
Here is something I have not been able to reconcile. Huang Po says the cessation of conceptual thought requires great effort. According to the Dzogchen root text, effort only creates more suffering in Samsara. Which is correct? Somebody please tell me and explain why.
This is an interesting point I think--it may be worth starting a couple of new topics just to work it out.

Both traditions agree that the cessation of conceptual thought requires great effort. This is evidenced in ChNN's remarks on "fixation" as a meditation practice, or the context of shamatha in and around Dzogchen (which is another topic people will have divergent views on). Anyway if you say to a Dzogchen master, "I find that the cessation of thought requires great effort," I suspect that master will not disagree. It's just a fact of the mind: if you want to cease thought, you have to work really hard at it.

Is it worth it? That is, what about that second claim steve bakr points out, that attempting to cease thinking by great effort only causes you more trouble? Dzogchen practice, as far as I know, does not encourage anyone to cease thought but to recognize thought as the play of the mind (in so many words). Now, would a Ch'an master agree with this as a description of practice? I think that would depend on the Ch'an/Zen tradition, because I've read varying instructions on this point, and it may depend on the context and the development of the student, the teacher, the tradition--any number of factors.

So I see two separate potential topics to discuss here: 1. what's the role of shamatha relative to Dzogchen? and 2. what is the role of cessation of thought in Ch'an/Zen? is there a cognate for rigpa in Ch'an/Zen, and if so, how is it contextualized and actualized in practice?

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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by steve_bakr » Tue Dec 08, 2015 3:14 pm

:offtopic: :offtopic:
smcj wrote:
Huang Po says the cessation of conceptual thought requires great effort. According to the Dzogchen root text, effort only creates more suffering in Samsara. Which is correct? Somebody please tell me and explain why.
Answers:

Huang Po is correct--here in the Zen/Chan forum.

"The Supreme Source" is correct--in the Dzogchen forum.

At least that's according to the ToS. :rules:

If you ask me in "Exploring Buddhism" I'll have to admit I don't know. :shrug:
OK, I was definitely not intending to pit one sect against another. I am still relatively new to DW and have not yet fully adapted to all the parameters of the individual subforums. I need to work on that.

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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by steve_bakr » Tue Dec 08, 2015 3:19 pm

Ayu wrote:
smcj wrote:
Huang Po says the cessation of conceptual thought requires great effort. According to the Dzogchen root text, effort only creates more suffering in Samsara. Which is correct? Somebody please tell me and explain why.
Answers:

Huang Po is correct--here in the Zen/Chan forum.

"The Supreme Source" is correct--in the Dzogchen forum.

At least that's according to the ToS. :rules:

If you ask me in "Exploring Buddhism" I'll have to admit I don't know. :shrug:
Maybe here we could try to bear different buddhist-traditional views respectfully alongside one another.
Ayu, I will try to be more sensitive to that. These are questions I ask myself in my personal studies and don't yet know where and how to pose them in DW.

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Astus
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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by Astus » Tue Dec 08, 2015 3:20 pm

what is the role of cessation of thought in Ch'an/Zen?
See what is in the Platform Sutra (BDK Edition):

"If you empty your minds and sit in quietude, this is to become attached to the emptiness of blankness."
(ch 2, p 29)

"If one does not think of the hundred things in order to cause thought to be eradicated, this is bondage within the Dharma. This is called an extreme view."
(ch 2, p 34)

"Nonthought is to be without thought in the context of thoughts."
(ch 4, p 43)

"In this teaching of seated meditation, one fundamentally does not concentrate on mind, nor does one concentrate on purity, nor is it motionlessness. If one is to concentrate on the mind, then the mind [involved] is fundamentally false. You should understand that the mind is like a phantasm, so nothing can concentrate on it. If one is to concentrate on purity, then [realize that because] our natures are fundamentally pure, it is through false thoughts that suchness is covered up. Just be without false thoughts and the nature is pure of itself. If you activate your mind to become attached to purity, you will only generate the falseness of purity. The false is without location; it is the concentration that is false. Purity is without shape and characteristics; you only create the characteristics of purity and say this is ‘effort’ [in meditation]. To have such a view is to obscure one’s own fundamental nature, and only to be fettered by purity."
(ch 5. p 45)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by muni » Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:38 pm

If we were not already nature like it appears and how it is, then this nature should have to be created and there is no "who", or "one" who can "do" so other than in dream. Alas. We identify with our expereinces, our body and mind, by senses and this identification is the opposite of Buddha hood, it is false hood. But we prefer to believe our ideas or opinions and strive for them even for the costs of our lives. Many of our fellows are demonstrating this and they give an opportunity as holding a mirror to us to see our own protection of our ideas, concepts which are separating us from what we experience as the outher world. Just starting to doubt in the reality and the solidity of our passing thoughts, concepts can shake the false ground, make it less to trust. But by habits we are used to swimm helplessly in the hot running stream of thoughts, emotions, feelings. It are inner tsunamies with with we identify us, as my life, my feelings, my whatever and so that is what we are as well.
I think instead of talking about enlightenment, we can also look how our mind works and so how we are conditioned in different ways by phenomena (inner-outer). This as practice reveals what is not conditioned, but minds' habits are strong and mind don't like to be "jobless".

I read effort in a post and I hear once that it is not exactly about "do" but about "be". Anyway, so yogis express it.
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by Caodemarte » Wed Dec 09, 2015 11:00 pm

My understanding is that Chan teaches that the mind of the student makes practice hard or easy. So it can be as easy as walking to on grass or as hard as walking on coals.

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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by RisingSon » Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:05 pm

Image

Empty cloud on intellectual & lazy Chan practice. :thumbsup:

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KeithA
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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by KeithA » Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:09 am

Palzang Jangchub wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:21 am
Guo Gu wrote:The Chan tradition does not usually refer to steps or stages. Its central teaching is that we are intrinsically awake; our mind is originally without abiding, fixations, and vexations, and its nature is without divisions and stages. This is the basis of the Chan view of sudden enlightenment. If our mind’s nature were not already free, that would imply we could become enlightened only after we practiced, which is not so. If it’s possible to gain enlightenment, then it’s possible to lose it as well.

Consider a room, which is naturally spacious. However we organize the furniture in the room will not affect its intrinsic spaciousness. We can put up walls to divide the room, but they are temporary. And whether we leave the room clean or cluttered and messy, it won’t affect its natural spaciousness. Mind is also intrinsically spacious. Although we can get caught up in our desires and aversions, our true nature is not affected by those vexations. We are inherently free.

In the Chan tradition, therefore, practice is not about producing enlightenment. You might wonder, “Then what am I doing here, practicing?” Because practice does help clean up the “furniture” in the “room.” By not attaching to your thoughts, you remove the furniture, so to speak. And once your mind is clean, instead of fixating on the chairs, tables, and so on, you see its spaciousness. Then you can let the furniture be or rearrange it any way you want—not for yourself, but for the benefit of others in the room.
Read the full article here:
http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/web-arch ... tened.html
I can't help but wonder why a TB practitioner would post this here, without comment. :shrug:

_/|\_

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KeithA
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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by KeithA » Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:11 am

KeithA wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:09 am
Palzang Jangchub wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:21 am
Guo Gu wrote:The Chan tradition does not usually refer to steps or stages. Its central teaching is that we are intrinsically awake; our mind is originally without abiding, fixations, and vexations, and its nature is without divisions and stages. This is the basis of the Chan view of sudden enlightenment. If our mind’s nature were not already free, that would imply we could become enlightened only after we practiced, which is not so. If it’s possible to gain enlightenment, then it’s possible to lose it as well.

Consider a room, which is naturally spacious. However we organize the furniture in the room will not affect its intrinsic spaciousness. We can put up walls to divide the room, but they are temporary. And whether we leave the room clean or cluttered and messy, it won’t affect its natural spaciousness. Mind is also intrinsically spacious. Although we can get caught up in our desires and aversions, our true nature is not affected by those vexations. We are inherently free.

In the Chan tradition, therefore, practice is not about producing enlightenment. You might wonder, “Then what am I doing here, practicing?” Because practice does help clean up the “furniture” in the “room.” By not attaching to your thoughts, you remove the furniture, so to speak. And once your mind is clean, instead of fixating on the chairs, tables, and so on, you see its spaciousness. Then you can let the furniture be or rearrange it any way you want—not for yourself, but for the benefit of others in the room.
Read the full article here:
http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/web-arch ... tened.html
I can't help but wonder why a TB practitioner would post this here, without comment. :shrug:

_/|\_
Please disregard this. It doesn't really matter.

I tried to delete it, but to no avail :hi:

Fruitzilla
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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by Fruitzilla » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:29 am

You fell for the old snake and rope trick eh? :P

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KeithA
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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by KeithA » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:38 pm

Fruitzilla wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:29 am
You fell for the old snake and rope trick eh? :P
hehe...maybe so, maybe so. :smile:

The words "You are already enlightened" are a dog whistle to folks who put more stock in the various teachings regarding levels. I erroneously thought that was the direction of the post, to poke some fun at Guo Gu, whom I respect a great deal. I am far too sensitive and whiny about perceived sectarian slights. Like I said, it really doesn't matter.

The article cited in the OP is all standard Chan. I would be lying if I said I really understood the furniture/living room metaphor and there was some wording I might quibble with, but that is entirely my deficiency, not Guo Gu's.

_/|\_

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Malcolm
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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by Malcolm » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:55 pm

KeithA wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:38 pm
I would be lying if I said I really understood the furniture/living room metaphor
It's a variation on the white and black clouds metaphor.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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dzogchungpa
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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:50 pm

KeithA wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:09 am
I can't help but wonder why a TB practitioner would post this here, without comment. :shrug:

Some TB practitioners are quite interested in Chan. :smile:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

SunWuKong
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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by SunWuKong » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:26 am

why does it matter if there are or are not thoughts? if theres thoughts, you let them go, no attachment. If there are no thoughts, theres no problem, and agin, dont attatchment to it
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

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