Texts that destroy ""scientific" materialism

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Malcolm
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Re: Texts that destroy ""scientific" materialism

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jun 05, 2016 11:22 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
That's because you are literalist (despite your protestations) and cannot understand how two completely different realities can exist and that Buddha and other Indian scholars were not describing the world that appears karmically to our minds today.
They experienced the same world we do today. They just had a more limited understanding of it since they travelled less, had less scientific instruments for measurement, less reliable means of recording things they discovered, and so on.

No doubt you revere Nagarjuna from the point of view of his teaching of the Middle Way yet you cannot accept that he saw Mount Meru and went to the Western continent, even though this is the consequence of his teaching!
I have read every text written by Nāgārjuna, and there is not a single one where he reports either seeing Meru or travelling Aparagodaniya. These are tall tales without shred of truth in them.
Last edited by Malcolm on Sun Jun 05, 2016 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Malcolm
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Re: Texts that destroy ""scientific" materialism

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jun 05, 2016 11:23 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Virgo wrote: Are you saying that beings on earth at that time perceived Mt. Meru (and that is why it was described), or are you saying that Enlightened Beings simply perceive geography differently than we do?

Kevin
Quite obviously Jambudipa cannot be planet Earth...
Of course not, since it is India.

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Virgo
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Re: Texts that destroy ""scientific" materialism

Post by Virgo » Sun Jun 05, 2016 11:29 pm

Malcolm wrote:[

Of course not, since it is India.
Right...

Kevin

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Virgo
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Re: Texts that destroy ""scientific" materialism

Post by Virgo » Sun Jun 05, 2016 11:31 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote: Quite obviously Jambudipa cannot be planet Earth so Buddha and the other realised beings at that time were perceiving and explaining a different karmic reality..
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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: Texts that destroy ""scientific" materialism

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Sun Jun 05, 2016 11:35 pm

Malcolm wrote: They experienced the same world we do today. They just had a more limited understanding of it since they travelled less, had less scientific instruments for measurement, less reliable means of recording things they discovered, and so on.
Buddha had a more limited understanding....do you see what you're saying? Buddha's teachings on the middle way perfectly allow for different karmic realities but you can't accept that, so you are literalist. You don't believe Buddha.
I have read every text written by Nāgārjuna, and there is not a single one where he reports either seeing Meru or travelling Aparagodaniya. These are tall tales without shred of truth in them.
All biographies of Nagarjuna explain that he went to the Northern Continent (sorry, my mistake). What evidence do you have that these are tall tales? Because you don't agree? Nagarjuna wrote about Mount Meru in his works such as Friendly Letter - was he wrong, confused or of a more limited understanding? This is a very ordinary view.
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Re: Texts that destroy ""scientific" materialism

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Sun Jun 05, 2016 11:37 pm

Virgo wrote:
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In emptiness. :twothumbsup:

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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: Texts that destroy ""scientific" materialism

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Sun Jun 05, 2016 11:38 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Virgo wrote: Are you saying that beings on earth at that time perceived Mt. Meru (and that is why it was described), or are you saying that Enlightened Beings simply perceive geography differently than we do?

Kevin
Quite obviously Jambudipa cannot be planet Earth...
Of course not, since it is India.
We all live on Jambudipa, it's not just India.

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Quay
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Re: Texts that destroy ""scientific" materialism

Post by Quay » Sun Jun 05, 2016 11:52 pm

Malcolm wrote:...
They experienced the same world we do today. They just had a more limited understanding of it since they travelled less, had less scientific instruments for measurement, less reliable means of recording things they discovered, and so on....
Same in what way? For instance, at the time being referenced most of North America was densely forested. That is not the case now.

But if you're saying that in a conventional sense the earth appears to be generally like it was then (in relation to the average human lifespan over the last twenty centuries) but the way of looking at it has generally changed then that makes sense to me.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

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maybay
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Re: Texts that destroy ""scientific" materialism

Post by maybay » Sun Jun 05, 2016 11:55 pm

madhusudan wrote:I'm looking for recommendations of texts that explain the error in scientific materialism and/or positivism. I have Thinley Norbu's Cascading Waterfall of Nectar, which has some good refutations of both eternalism and nihilism. What medicine do you recommend?
Materialism is an honest mistake. Positivism is the more essential error. If you are taken with the positivist vision then materialism is sure to follow. Elijah Millgram tackles positivism in The Great Endarkenment - Philosophy for an Age of Hyperspecialization (2015). Basically he shows how the 3 stages are cyclic. The conclusions reached in the positivist stage end up as valid ground for the theistic.
People will know nothing and everything
Remember nothing and everything
Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
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Malcolm
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Re: Texts that destroy ""scientific" materialism

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jun 06, 2016 12:06 am

Tsongkhapafan wrote:[

Buddha had a more limited understanding....
I did not say that. I said that Indians during the time of the Buddha had a more limited understanding. But would your faith in Dharma really come crashing down if Buddha was not knowledgeable in atomic physics?

All biographies of Nagarjuna explain that he went to the Northern Continent (sorry, my mistake). What evidence do you have that these are tall tales? Because you don't agree? Nagarjuna wrote about Mount Meru in his works such as Friendly Letter - was he wrong, confused or of a more limited understanding? This is a very ordinary view.
The biographies of Nāgārjuna are fanciful hagiographies (and you are only referring to Tibetan hagiographies, to the exclusion of earlier Chinese ones) written many centuries after his death. They are statements of faith, not statements of fact. In fact we know very little about Nāgārjuna as a person. Traditional sources frequently conflate Nāgārjuna of the MMK with later persons of the same name. But really, we don't need to know much about Nāgārjuna of the MMK as a person. His enduring legacy is found in the collection of reasoning and the collection of praises (excluding the Dharmadhātustava, which is clearly much later).

Malcolm
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Re: Texts that destroy ""scientific" materialism

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jun 06, 2016 12:09 am

Quay wrote:[

But if you're saying that in a conventional sense the earth appears to be generally like it was then (in relation to the average human lifespan over the last twenty centuries) but the way of looking at it has generally changed then that makes sense to me.
Yes.

Malcolm
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Re: Texts that destroy ""scientific" materialism

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jun 06, 2016 12:11 am

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Quite obviously Jambudipa cannot be planet Earth...
Of course not, since it is India.
We all live on Jambudipa, it's not just India.
It's is just India.

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maybay
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Re: Texts that destroy ""scientific" materialism

Post by maybay » Mon Jun 06, 2016 12:14 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Of course not, since it is India.
We all live on Jambudipa, it's not just India.
It's is just India.
Where do we live?
People will know nothing and everything
Remember nothing and everything
Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
- Machig Labdron

Malcolm
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Re: Texts that destroy ""scientific" materialism

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jun 06, 2016 12:21 am

maybay wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
We all live on Jambudipa, it's not just India.
It's is just India.
Where do we live?
Turtle Island.

aussiebloke
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Re: Texts that destroy ""scientific" materialism

Post by aussiebloke » Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:53 am

Someone once told me that Tai Situ Rinpoche once said that the Buddha didn't come to teach geography.

madhusudan
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Re: Texts that destroy ""scientific" materialism

Post by madhusudan » Mon Jun 06, 2016 12:28 pm

Thanks, I've got some places to dig and some reading time on the horizon.

fckw
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Re: Texts that destroy ""scientific" materialism

Post by fckw » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:00 pm

John Passmore famously stated that logical positivism...
...is dead, or as dead as a philosophical movement ever becomes.
There you go.

Karl Popper showed that positive verification is in a strict sense not possible, only negative falsification remains.

However, my gut feeling tells me this is not what you're looking for, as you're posting this in a forum on Buddhism. Are you maybe trying to sneak in idealism, transcendentalism etc. secretely? Buddhism is still full of these positions today. In fact, Stephen Batchelor is one of the few well-known authors who seriously attempted to get rid of things in Buddhist religions that Western philosophy and Christian theology have got rid of quite a long time ago already.

MiphamFan
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Re: Texts that destroy ""scientific" materialism

Post by MiphamFan » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:13 pm

fckw wrote:John Passmore famously stated that logical positivism...
...is dead, or as dead as a philosophical movement ever becomes.
There you go.

Karl Popper showed that positive verification is in a strict sense not possible, only negative falsification remains.

However, my gut feeling tells me this is not what you're looking for, as you're posting this in a forum on Buddhism. Are you maybe trying to sneak in idealism, transcendentalism etc. secretely? Buddhism is still full of these positions today. In fact, Stephen Batchelor is one of the few well-known authors who seriously attempted to get rid of things in Buddhist religions that Western philosophy and Christian theology have got rid of quite a long time ago already.
Like what? Reincarnation? If you don't accept a materialist model of consciousness there is no reason why reincarnation would be false.

fckw
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Re: Texts that destroy ""scientific" materialism

Post by fckw » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:36 pm

MiphamFan wrote:
fckw wrote:John Passmore famously stated that logical positivism...
...is dead, or as dead as a philosophical movement ever becomes.
There you go.

Karl Popper showed that positive verification is in a strict sense not possible, only negative falsification remains.

However, my gut feeling tells me this is not what you're looking for, as you're posting this in a forum on Buddhism. Are you maybe trying to sneak in idealism, transcendentalism etc. secretely? Buddhism is still full of these positions today. In fact, Stephen Batchelor is one of the few well-known authors who seriously attempted to get rid of things in Buddhist religions that Western philosophy and Christian theology have got rid of quite a long time ago already.
Like what? Reincarnation? If you don't accept a materialist model of consciousness there is no reason why reincarnation would be false.
It actually goes far beyond beliefs in karma and reincarnation.

Here's a start if you don't know where to start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_Buddhism

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Re: Texts that destroy ""scientific" materialism

Post by DGA » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:46 pm

"secular Buddhism" is an oxymoron. Buddhism is a religious tradition. Secularism is a different tradition. Buddhism and secularism can be good friends, but they differ in form, function, and objective.

Typically, the kinds of programs promoted as "secular Buddhism" involve pursuing secular objectives, such as this-worldly relief of pain and hardship ("stress relief" or "personal meaning" or whatever), by means of denatured Buddhist or Buddhist-like practices, such as seated meditation.

It's not good, it's not bad; it's simply a novel formation and it isn't helpful to tack to word "Buddhist" onto it.

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