Ultimate Truth

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Sat Nov 05, 2016 5:41 pm

Many times in my trying to comprehend Ultimate Truth Or Ultimate Reality....I thought..what if this Earth and Universe is already GONE, and what we are seeing here, is like how we see the light emitted from stars billions of light years away, that are now gone...but we see their light....Or that Ultimately we and everything will not be here...because of Buddhas prediction of the Seven Suns destroying Earth....so Ultimately.....there is nothing here....but the Void....in which all appears....does that make any sense ???
The Universe flowing through my veins...stars falling from my eyes......rocks rolling in my head...lemon juice dripping down my chin....

https://drunklotus.blog

White Lotus
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Post by White Lotus » Sat Nov 05, 2016 6:10 pm

kunga, riddles within riddles. wheels within wheels. too precious for words.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:21 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
No, there is no contradiction. The problem is not appearances, the problem is clinging; so whether a buddha perceives shit or gold, they are regarded them the same way — a buddha regards them without any accepting or rejecting. But it does not mean that a buddha perceives that all shit smells like roses. For a buddha, roses smell like roses and shit smells like shit.
Impurity isn't related to Buddha's mind. Buddha's don't see shit, these are hallucinations for impure beings like ourselves. If even gods perceive fluids are nectar, it goes without saying that Buddhas do not perceive impure things.
Things are neither pure nor impure, "pure and impure" are the dualistic concepts of sentient beings. Buddhas see shit, they just don't relate to it as impure or something to avoid, nor to they relate to gold as something pure to acquire.

Since this is case, if you insist that Buddhas in the human realm do not see water (or do not see pus and blood in a preta realm), I think you are deluded and you do not understand the meaning of conventional truth.

If on the other hand you opine that buddhas do not perceive phenomena such as shit and gold in terms of purity or impurity, then I can go along with this. But to believe that buddhas live in a comic book world of pure lands is naive beyond belief, and it means, as far as I am concerned, you have not understood the real import of the generation stage nor the completion stage.
Have you actually studied Tantra? Just asking. Are you saying that Pure Lands don't exist? If you are, then you are denying Buddha's teachings. What makes pure lands pure? The absence of impurity. This is not a dualistic concept any more than the absence of delusion is a dualistic concept. The six realms of samsara don't exist for Buddhas because they are creations of deluded mind and Buddhas are not deluded. Not only does shit not exist for them, any ordinary thing that is perceived by an impure human mind doesn't exist for them, otherwise you are saying that a person with clear sight sees the appearance of floating hairs, they just don't grasp at them! Hallucinations don't exist for people who are not hallucinating.

You do understand that appearances are relative and dependent on the mind, right?
Last edited by Tsongkhapafan on Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:24 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
No, there is no contradiction. The problem is not appearances, the problem is clinging; so whether a buddha perceives shit or gold, they are regarded them the same way — a buddha regards them without any accepting or rejecting. But it does not mean that a buddha perceives that all shit smells like roses. For a buddha, roses smell like roses and shit smells like shit.
Impurity isn't related to Buddha's mind. Buddha's don't see shit, these are hallucinations for impure beings like ourselves. If even gods perceive fluids are nectar, it goes without saying that Buddhas do not perceive impure things.
This is where you lost me. If the Buddha cannot see defilement how does he know it even exists? How can a doctor treat patients if he is blind to their symptoms?
Buddhas manifest in accordance with our karma. They can emanate and give the appearance of sharing our perceptions because that's the most skilful way to help us. They don't actually have to see things the way we see them in order for them to be able to help us - in fact, it helps that they don't. If you're trying to help a feverish and hallucinating person, it may sometimes be helpful to agree with how they see things mistakenly, but the ultimate goal is to pacify that person's deluded perceptions. You can only do that because you don't share them.

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Malcolm
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Post by Malcolm » Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:32 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Have you actually studied Tantra? Just asking. Are you saying that Pure Lands don't exist? If you are, then you are denying Buddha's teachings. What makes pure lands pure? The absence of impurity. This is not a dualistic concept any more than the absence of delusion is a dualistic concept. The six realms of samsara don't exist for Buddhas because they are creations of deluded mind and Buddhas are not deluded. Not only does shit not exist for them, any ordinary thing that is perceived by an impure human mind doesn't exist for them, otherwise you are saying that a person with clear sight sees the appearance of floating hairs, they just don't grasp at them! Hallucinations don't exist for people who are not hallucinating.

You do understand that appearances are relative and dependent on the mind, right?
If an awakened person has jaundice, they will see conches as yellow, just like anyone else.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Crazywisdom
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:51 pm

pure lands are just a device...


if they are pure in Buddha's sense, they do not exist or not exist so any appearances would merely be self appearance and that's not a place
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

Jeff
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Post by Jeff » Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:54 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Buddhas manifest in accordance with our karma. They can emanate and give the appearance of sharing our perceptions because that's the most skilful way to help us. They don't actually have to see things the way we see them in order for them to be able to help us - in fact, it helps that they don't. If you're trying to help a feverish and hallucinating person, it may sometimes be helpful to agree with how they see things mistakenly, but the ultimate goal is to pacify that person's deluded perceptions. You can only do that because you don't share them.
Well said. Thank you.

White Lotus
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Post by White Lotus » Sat Nov 05, 2016 8:13 pm

puer, is that true?
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Sat Nov 05, 2016 8:23 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Have you actually studied Tantra? Just asking. Are you saying that Pure Lands don't exist? If you are, then you are denying Buddha's teachings. What makes pure lands pure? The absence of impurity. This is not a dualistic concept any more than the absence of delusion is a dualistic concept. The six realms of samsara don't exist for Buddhas because they are creations of deluded mind and Buddhas are not deluded. Not only does shit not exist for them, any ordinary thing that is perceived by an impure human mind doesn't exist for them, otherwise you are saying that a person with clear sight sees the appearance of floating hairs, they just don't grasp at them! Hallucinations don't exist for people who are not hallucinating.

You do understand that appearances are relative and dependent on the mind, right?
If an awakened person has jaundice, they will see conches as yellow, just like anyone else.
Awakened people don't get jaundice, but they may appear to from our point of view. By awakened I assume you mean enlightened, not just liberated.

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Malcolm
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Post by Malcolm » Sat Nov 05, 2016 8:32 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Awakened people don't get jaundice, but they may appear to from our point of view. By awakened I assume you mean enlightened, not just liberated.
Nirmanakāyas have physical bodies, which suffer from erosion, just like ours do. In the Mahaparinibbana sutta it is said:
  • But when the Blessed One had entered upon the rainy season, there arose in him a severe illness, and sharp and deadly pains came upon him. And the Blessed One endured them mindfully, clearly comprehending and unperturbed..."Now I am frail, Ananda, old, aged, far gone in years. This is my eightieth year, and my life is spent. Even as an old cart, Ananda, is held together with much difficulty, so the body of the Tathagata is kept going only with supports. It is, Ananda, only when the Tathagata, disregarding external objects, with the cessation of certain feelings, attains to and abides in the signless concentration of mind, [19] that his body is more comfortable."
Now, I am sure you have some fantasy answer, but I think the Buddha's words are more reliable than yours.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Jeff
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Post by Jeff » Sat Nov 05, 2016 9:34 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
If an awakened person has jaundice, they will see conches as yellow, just like anyone else.
Awakened people don't get jaundice, but they may appear to from our point of view. By awakened I assume you mean enlightened, not just liberated.
The Nirmankaya exists at a level of manifestion and hence may have both pure and impure aspects based upon the realm of manifestation, hence the body can get sick and die. But, as I think you are saying, it is always fully integrated in presence with the sambhogkaya and dharmakaya. There is no separate duality, so no sense of suffering or really becoming old and frail. More like a costume being worn to help sentient beings.

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conebeckham
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Post by conebeckham » Sat Nov 05, 2016 9:39 pm

Jeff wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
If an awakened person has jaundice, they will see conches as yellow, just like anyone else.
Awakened people don't get jaundice, but they may appear to from our point of view. By awakened I assume you mean enlightened, not just liberated.
The Nirmankaya exists at a level of manifestion and hence may have both pure and impure aspects based upon the realm of manifestation, hence the body can get sick and die. But, as I think you are saying, it is always fully integrated in presence with the sambhogkaya and dharmakaya. There is no separate duality, so no sense of suffering or really becoming old and frail. More like a costume being worn to help sentient beings.

Whereas, for ordinary sentient beings, afflictions somehow inhere and are not "costumes?"
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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conebeckham
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Post by conebeckham » Sat Nov 05, 2016 9:48 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Have you actually studied Tantra? Just asking. Are you saying that Pure Lands don't exist? If you are, then you are denying Buddha's teachings. What makes pure lands pure? The absence of impurity. This is not a dualistic concept any more than the absence of delusion is a dualistic concept. The six realms of samsara don't exist for Buddhas because they are creations of deluded mind and Buddhas are not deluded. Not only does shit not exist for them, any ordinary thing that is perceived by an impure human mind doesn't exist for them, otherwise you are saying that a person with clear sight sees the appearance of floating hairs, they just don't grasp at them! Hallucinations don't exist for people who are not hallucinating.

You do understand that appearances are relative and dependent on the mind, right?
LOL, Malcolm has studied more "tantra" that you are likely even aware of, Tsongkhapafan. I am guessing that I have, as well, but it's beside the point--just worth a laugh, though.


Pure Lands are appearances, just as our saha world is appearance without reality. There is no purity, there is no lack of purity. There is no impurity, there is no lack of impurity. The Real Purity, in Tantra, is one's intrinsic awareness, the wisdom that is luminous and nonconceptual. See Hevajra Tantra in two chapters, if you'd like.
The elements, aggregates, etc., are all primordially pure, and have been of the nature of the five Buddhas and their consorts since beginningless time. This is basic Tantric theory. This should not be understood to mean that there is a transformation of, say, shit and semen into ambrosia. There's a misunderstanding if one thinks that this is the case.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Jeff
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Post by Jeff » Sat Nov 05, 2016 9:48 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Jeff wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Awakened people don't get jaundice, but they may appear to from our point of view. By awakened I assume you mean enlightened, not just liberated.
The Nirmankaya exists at a level of manifestion and hence may have both pure and impure aspects based upon the realm of manifestation, hence the body can get sick and die. But, as I think you are saying, it is always fully integrated in presence with the sambhogkaya and dharmakaya. There is no separate duality, so no sense of suffering or really becoming old and frail. More like a costume being worn to help sentient beings.
Whereas, for ordinary sentient beings, afflictions somehow inhere and are not "costumes?"
Yes, exactly.

Ordinary beings beings still get caught up in the localized perceptions and with it all of the (costume) issues, fears and suffering.

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Rick
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Post by Rick » Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:08 pm

Does this shorthand work?

Conventionally, things are real.
Ultimately, things are neither real nor unreal.

Things = gross or subtle objects, material or mental, chairs or enlightenment.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...

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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Awakened people don't get jaundice, but they may appear to from our point of view. By awakened I assume you mean enlightened, not just liberated.
Nirmanakāyas have physical bodies, which suffer from erosion, just like ours do. In the Mahaparinibbana sutta it is said:
  • But when the Blessed One had entered upon the rainy season, there arose in him a severe illness, and sharp and deadly pains came upon him. And the Blessed One endured them mindfully, clearly comprehending and unperturbed..."Now I am frail, Ananda, old, aged, far gone in years. This is my eightieth year, and my life is spent. Even as an old cart, Ananda, is held together with much difficulty, so the body of the Tathagata is kept going only with supports. It is, Ananda, only when the Tathagata, disregarding external objects, with the cessation of certain feelings, attains to and abides in the signless concentration of mind, [19] that his body is more comfortable."
Now, I am sure you have some fantasy answer, but I think the Buddha's words are more reliable than yours.
Last edited by Tsongkhapafan on Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Awakened people don't get jaundice, but they may appear to from our point of view. By awakened I assume you mean enlightened, not just liberated.
Nirmanakāyas have physical bodies, which suffer from erosion, just like ours do. In the Mahaparinibbana sutta it is said:
  • But when the Blessed One had entered upon the rainy season, there arose in him a severe illness, and sharp and deadly pains came upon him. And the Blessed One endured them mindfully, clearly comprehending and unperturbed..."Now I am frail, Ananda, old, aged, far gone in years. This is my eightieth year, and my life is spent. Even as an old cart, Ananda, is held together with much difficulty, so the body of the Tathagata is kept going only with supports. It is, Ananda, only when the Tathagata, disregarding external objects, with the cessation of certain feelings, attains to and abides in the signless concentration of mind, [19] that his body is more comfortable."
Now, I am sure you have some fantasy answer, but I think the Buddha's words are more reliable than yours.
These are ordinary appearances to ordinary minds; Buddha sees things differently. You'll be telling me that Buddha died next!

Impure minds see impure things, including Buddha who 'suffers'. If enlightened beings suffered, enlightenment would be pointless as it would be no different to be an ordinary being.

You really should study Tantra. Buddha's Tantric teachings are very reliable.

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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:38 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Pure Lands are appearances, just as our saha world is appearance without reality. There is no purity, there is no lack of purity. There is no impurity, there is no lack of impurity. The Real Purity, in Tantra, is one's intrinsic awareness, the wisdom that is luminous and nonconceptual. See Hevajra Tantra in two chapters, if you'd like.

The elements, aggregates, etc., are all primordially pure, and have been of the nature of the five Buddhas and their consorts since beginningless time. This is basic Tantric theory. This should not be understood to mean that there is a transformation of, say, shit and semen into ambrosia. There's a misunderstanding if one thinks that this is the case.
There is purity and there is lack of purity and these are relative appearances. Would you prefer water from a spring or water from a sewer? Everybody understands the difference between pure and impure. Pure in the context of our discussion means an absence of true sufferings and its cause, as is the case in a Pure Land.

You say there is no purity and no lack of purity and then you say that the elements and aggregates are primordially pure. Surely this is a contradiction? It's also false because if it were true we wouldn't be suffering. If what you say is true we have always been Buddhas but that is clearly not the case. We have a potentiality for purity, our Buddha nature, but for as long as this Buddha nature is obscured by the two obstructions, we are not Buddhas.
Last edited by Tsongkhapafan on Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:42 pm

rachmiel wrote:Does this shorthand work?

Conventionally, things are real.
Ultimately, things are neither real nor unreal.

Things = gross or subtle objects, material or mental, chairs or enlightenment.
Conventionally, things are false and deceptive.
Ultimately, they are mere appearances to mind.

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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: Ultimate Truth

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:43 pm

Thanks for the discussion, everyone, it's really fun! :smile:

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