In "Ocean of Reasoning" (p. 355) Tsongkhapa says in the commentary to MMK 17:14,
"Although all virtuous and nonvirtuous actions cease immediately upon their completion, they are not without effects, because when the karma arises, a nonmental compound called an indestructible element associated with karma arises in the continuum of the agent like a promissory note."
What is this nonmental element associated with karma? It sounds like an abhidharmic teaching, however, from the text it appears to me that Tsongkhapa actually accepts the existence of such an element. Could anyone explain please?
Nonmental Indestructible Element
Nonmental Indestructible Element
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Nonmental Indestructible Element
Sounds a bit like the Jain version of karma.
Also, if there is a "non-mental compound" in the mindstream, wouldn't this logically imply the mindstream is non-mental as well?
Also, if there is a "non-mental compound" in the mindstream, wouldn't this logically imply the mindstream is non-mental as well?
Re: Nonmental Indestructible Element
Astus wrote:In "Ocean of Reasoning" (p. 355) Tsongkhapa says in the commentary to MMK 17:14,
"Although all virtuous and nonvirtuous actions cease immediately upon their completion, they are not without effects, because when the karma arises, a nonmental compound called an indestructible element associated with karma arises in the continuum of the agent like a promissory note."
What is this nonmental element associated with karma? It sounds like an abhidharmic teaching, however, from the text it appears to me that Tsongkhapa actually accepts the existence of such an element. Could anyone explain please?
This is an Abhidharmic concept, form the Sammitya school. It is Nāgārjuna's preferred mechanism for explaining karma and results. Preferred, for example, to the Sautrantika cittaparinama theory, which he (Nāgārjuna) rejects as incoherent.
N
Re: Nonmental Indestructible Element
I might be mistaken here but it wasn't Nagarjuna who mentioned that element but Tsongkhapa. Also, it seems quite unnecessary to explain the efficacy of karma. Third, it is not explained in the text itself nor does it sound really convincing how such an element exists.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Nonmental Indestructible Element
It is indeed Nāgārajuna's position, the name of the dharma in question is avipraṇāśa. MMK 17:13-20 explicates this doctrine. Candrakriti clarifies. This is not an invention of Tsongkhapa's. Nāgārjuna affirms in verse 17:20 "The avipraṇāśa of karma is the teaching of the Buddha."Astus wrote:I might be mistaken here but it wasn't Nagarjuna who mentioned that element but Tsongkhapa. Also, it seems quite unnecessary to explain the efficacy of karma. Third, it is not explained in the text itself nor does it sound really convincing how such an element exists.
This is the sole place in the MMK where Nāgārjuna actually advances a shravaka position he likes. See Mabja, ppg. 353-359.
As I said, this is originally a Sammitya doctrine. See also Karmasiddhiprakarana, ppg, 87-91 for a translation of Candrakirti's take.
Nevertheless, even though among various shravaka theories that Nagarjuna examines, this is one he apparently likes, still, from a Madhyamaka perspective he finds the idea of this avipraṇāśa unnecessary even though it is a teaching of the Buddha.
M
Re: Nonmental Indestructible Element
So Nagarjuna repudiates eternalists in drag, the Sarvastivadins, but is actually an admirer of Pudgavaladin tenets?
It's like ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife...
It's like ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife...
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"
--- Gandavyuha Sutra
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"
--- Gandavyuha Sutra
Re: Nonmental Indestructible Element
Anders Honore wrote:So Nagarjuna repudiates eternalists in drag, the Sarvastivadins, but is actually an admirer of Pudgavaladin tenets?
It's like ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife...
It has been suggested that Nāgārjuna was monk of this school.
N
Re: Nonmental Indestructible Element
Thanks Namdrol, you're of great help. Also explains why simply avipraṇāśa is translated in Chinese as 不失法 (avipraṇāśa-dharma).
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Nonmental Indestructible Element
I suppose that is likely simply by virtue of them by and large being the majority school in India.Namdrol wrote:Anders Honore wrote:So Nagarjuna repudiates eternalists in drag, the Sarvastivadins, but is actually an admirer of Pudgavaladin tenets?
It's like ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife...
It has been suggested that Nāgārjuna was monk of this school.
N
Can't help but think the Buddhist landscape today would look very different indeed if more of the schools that actually dominated Indian Buddhism had survived. History being written by Mahayanins and the rather tertiary Mahavihara skews our picture of Indian Buddhism to an extent it's hard to even properly envision what was mainstream Buddhist tenets back in the day, free of the lenses of modern mainstream Buddhism.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"
--- Gandavyuha Sutra
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"
--- Gandavyuha Sutra