Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

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zenman
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Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by zenman » Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:52 pm

Do teachings or practices of mahamudra or dzogchen without tantric empowerment, and deity practice, exist?

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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:23 pm

zenman wrote:Do teachings or practices of mahamudra or dzogchen without tantric empowerment, and deity practice, exist?

There is no dzogchen or mahāmudra practice without direct introduction, at minimum.

Deity yoga practice is meant for those who do not understand the meaning of dzogchen or mahāmudra directly. Deity yoga is the indirect means of realizing dzogchen and mahāmudra.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

zenman
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Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by zenman » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:41 pm

Are there ways of practice of dzogchen or mahamudra that uses something else than tantric deity/ies as a method of practice?

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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:50 pm

zenman wrote:Are there ways of practice of dzogchen or mahamudra that uses something else than tantric deity/ies as a method of practice?
There are many practices within Dzogchen that do not involve deity yoga. But one should not be allergic to deity practices if one is a Dzogchen practitioner.

Guru Yoga, however, is indispensable.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:08 pm

Malcolm wrote:
zenman wrote:Do teachings or practices of mahamudra or dzogchen without tantric empowerment, and deity practice, exist?

There is no dzogchen or mahāmudra practice without direct introduction, at minimum.

Deity yoga practice is meant for those who do not understand the meaning of dzogchen or mahāmudra directly. Deity yoga is the indirect means of realizing dzogchen and mahāmudra.
Mahamudra realisations are impossible without Deity Yoga because generation stage practices are the cause of completion stage and enlightenment is impossible without completion stage. You make Highest Yoga Tantra sound inferior to Mahamudra when Mahamudra realisations are completion stage realisations of HYT.

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Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by zenman » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:23 pm

No deity allergy here. I am just wondering if such a method exists or not. I suppose not based on your comments which I am grateful for.

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conebeckham
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Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by conebeckham » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:31 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
zenman wrote:Do teachings or practices of mahamudra or dzogchen without tantric empowerment, and deity practice, exist?

There is no dzogchen or mahāmudra practice without direct introduction, at minimum.

Deity yoga practice is meant for those who do not understand the meaning of dzogchen or mahāmudra directly. Deity yoga is the indirect means of realizing dzogchen and mahāmudra.
Mahamudra realisations are impossible without Deity Yoga because generation stage practices are the cause of completion stage and enlightenment is impossible without completion stage. You make Highest Yoga Tantra sound inferior to Mahamudra when Mahamudra realisations are completion stage realisations of HYT.
So say you.
Gampopa says otherwise.

I'll trust Gampopa.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Vasana
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Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by Vasana » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:43 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
zenman wrote:Do teachings or practices of mahamudra or dzogchen without tantric empowerment, and deity practice, exist?

There is no dzogchen or mahāmudra practice without direct introduction, at minimum.

Deity yoga practice is meant for those who do not understand the meaning of dzogchen or mahāmudra directly. Deity yoga is the indirect means of realizing dzogchen and mahāmudra.
Mahamudra realisations are impossible without Deity Yoga because generation stage practices are the cause of completion stage and enlightenment is impossible without completion stage. You make Highest Yoga Tantra sound inferior to Mahamudra when Mahamudra realisations are completion stage realisations of HYT.

If you say that Mahamudra realisations are impossible without deity yoga then you're also saying the realization of Prajnaparamita is impossible without deity yoga and that the state of Prajnparamita is different to Mahamudra .

As for whether deity yoga is essential in the beginning ,middle and end, It really depends on the tradition you're practising, any specific samaya commitments and your teacher's advice and recommendation. The gradual approach of Dzogchen and Mahamudra via the Yidam seems to be most commonly prescribed but it isn't in every case.

It's not so black and white. There are some instructions that recommend keeping company with the Yidam even after you've experienced the 'birth' of uncontrived Mahamudra and Dzogchen mediation but then there also some instructions that view meditating with any form of contrived effort as a sidetrack and deviation if you've confidently experienced the genuine 'birth of meditation'. Doing so is described Like searching for shiny trinkets when you've already got gold in your hand or searching for the elephant in the forest when it's resting right next to you.

As for the OP, if you havn't received direct introduction or pointing out instructions, becoming familiar with śamatha and vipaśyanā can be extremely useful until then since neither are absent in certain Mahamudra and Dzogchen approaches.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:52 pm

zenman wrote:No deity allergy here. I am just wondering if such a method exists or not. I suppose not based on your comments which I am grateful for.

Yes, many.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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conebeckham
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Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by conebeckham » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:05 pm

To piggy-back on what everyone else has said....

Mahamudra is spoken of in many different ways. It is a "state." Dzogchen, too, can be approached with this understanding, but I will confine my comments to Mahamudra.

So, Mahamudra is the Result, also the State of Awareness/Emptiness, or sometimes described as "Bliss/Awareness," and, when fully stabilized, is Buddhahood. It's also spoken of as the ground, and as the path.

The Path of Mahamudra can be approached in myriad ways. There are traditions that dispense with Deity practice, but which rely on specific instructions, Pointing Out Instructions, Introductions, etc.
There are traditions which utilize the Two Stages of Deity Yoga, as well.
Tsongkhapafan's comments apply to a specific system or practice, and do not apply to the wider, rich tradition of Mahamudra. there are indeed other systems which rely on deity yoga and there are systems where deity yoga may or may not be included.
Last edited by conebeckham on Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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heart
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Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by heart » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:06 pm

zenman wrote:Do teachings or practices of mahamudra or dzogchen without tantric empowerment, and deity practice, exist?
There are "rigpai tsal wangs" for Semde, Longde and Mengakde in Dzogchen as well as all kinds of informal direct introductions.

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Atiyoga

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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bryandavis
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Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by bryandavis » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:24 pm

[quote ...because generation stage practices are the cause of completion stage [/quote]

Let’s say there are two kids being taught a lesson by a parent. The parent picks up a basket ball and tells both kids “kids, the world is a round orb, similar to this ball only a lot bigger, it might take time but you can walk completely around it.” Then the father explains about why the sun sets and rises and why we see a curvature of the horizon when we are at elevation etc.

One kid completely understands what is being pointed out. The second kid doesn’t quite get it, so he sets out to see if the world is really round, and he walks around the world to come back however many years later and finds the other kid sitting in the exact place where he left on his long journey. The kid who just returned tells the other kid “Hey! The world is round.”

The kid who knew from the get go after the father explained to him replies. “I know.”

Walking the earth is generation stage

zenman
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Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by zenman » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:35 pm

Great. Thank you for all the answers.

So. There are tantric deity practices for preparation, generation. What are the names of those methods that do the same preparation without deities?

I understand the importance of direct introduction and have received it from Norbu Rinpoche.

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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:47 pm

zenman wrote:What are the names of those methods that do the same preparation without deities?
Yantra yoga, pranayāma, etc., are all practices which in Dzogchen do not require deity yoga. In general, one can understand that Dzogchen utilizes many methods from the completion stage without requiring the creation stage.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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conebeckham
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Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by conebeckham » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:16 pm

zenman wrote:Great. Thank you for all the answers.

So. There are tantric deity practices for preparation, generation. What are the names of those methods that do the same preparation without deities?

I understand the importance of direct introduction and have received it from Norbu Rinpoche.
From the Mahamudra tradition, there are practices of Samatha and Vipassana which follow certain lines of analysis and certain objects of placement. some of these practices could be considered preparatory. Guru Yoga is indispensable. What we call "ngondro" is really elaborate guru yoga, and of course the standard "ngondros" include deities. But there are methods of Guru Yoga that do not include "deities," per se.

But ultimately, it is the Guru's instruction, and the disciple's reciept and internalization, which are the absolute necessities for Mahamudra, in any of the Mahamudra traditions I'm aware of. Everything else is applied as necessary, as means, as enrichment, etc.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

zenman
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Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by zenman » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:18 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Yantra yoga, pranayāma, etc., are all practices which in Dzogchen do not require deity yoga. In general, one can understand that Dzogchen utilizes many methods from the completion stage without requiring the creation stage.
How about on purely mental level?

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conebeckham
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Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by conebeckham » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:21 pm

zenman wrote:How about on purely mental level?
Yes.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

zenman
Posts: 378
Joined: Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:24 pm

Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by zenman » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:26 pm

conebeckham wrote:
From the Mahamudra tradition, there are practices of Samatha and Vipassana which follow certain lines of analysis and certain objects of placement. some of these practices could be considered preparatory.
Are such instructions in detail by any chance available through a public source?

I am trying to figure out what the ways for recognising the natural state are, and how these ways are exercised, after one understands through being directly introduced to the natural state what the natural state is. Different routes from the messy state to the clear state.

zenman
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Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by zenman » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:28 pm

conebeckham wrote:
zenman wrote:How about on purely mental level?
Yes.
My question was a reply to Malcolm's post, edited it after first posting it.

But if you answered to me, can you tell me what these methods are, just the names and where I could try to learn them.

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Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:33 pm

zenman wrote:
conebeckham wrote:
zenman wrote:How about on purely mental level?
Yes.
My question was a reply to Malcolm's post, edited it after first posting it.

But if you answered to me, can you tell me what these methods are, just the names and where I could try to learn them.

They (well Shamatha and Vipaysana generally at least) can be learned at many (Tibetan Buddhism-oriented) public Dharma centers, many have classes on them. However, they still aren't things to just go pick up and leave, it's best to have a teacher and/or supportive community around you, it's not like you just get the instructions and you're done.
Conebeckham wrote:But ultimately, it is the Guru's instruction, and the disciple's reciept and internalization, which are the absolute necessities for Mahamudra, in any of the Mahamudra traditions I'm aware of. Everything else is applied as necessary, as means, as enrichment, etc.
What Cone says here, these aren't just "techniques" you can kind of pick up from a text adequately or something, some sort of connection to a teacher and a tradition is kind of indispensable.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

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