Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

[Grigoris]

To suggest people potentially go into an environment that can cause them harm and prey on something as vulnerable and sacred as someones spirituality and pursuit of purity of heart isn't informed with wisdom. The warning of "use your rationality and don't take the bait on this, that, and the other" is just not really defensible nor I think something that is profitable for the community.

There is ALWAYS a potential for harm and being taken advantage of, in ANY social setting. If you are aware of the possibility (and this dead horse flogging has been going on for a number of decades now, so people would have to be blinkered not to be aware of it) and yet you still fall prey to it, well, then I can only assume people allow themselves to be taken advantage of.

This is not uncommon, we do it every day, in every social situation. In every social exchange. Where we draw boundaries, or the degree to which allow ourselves to be taken advantage of, is our decision TOO.

Ego is weird thing, people think that putting themselves into these situations may make them more spiritually advanced, more loved, more accepted, etc... and so they sell themselves for these apparent gains. But nobody forced them to sell their asses. An abusive relationship of his type requires an abuser and somebody willing to be abused. In the West entry into Buddhist religious organisations is mainly voluntary (maybe to a smaller degree, for "ethnic" Buddhists). I am sure that not everybody that put themselves into these situations was mentally retarded or a minor, so there must have been consent present.

I am glad to see people finally taking a stand against the abuse. This, at least, is heartening.

[CedarTree]

To suggest people potentially go into an environment that can cause them harm and prey on something as vulnerable and sacred as someones spirituality and pursuit of purity of heart isn't informed with wisdom. The warning of "use your rationality and don't take the bait on this, that, and the other" is just not really defensible nor I think something that is profitable for the community.

There is ALWAYS a potential for harm and being taken advantage of, in ANY social setting. If you are aware of the possibility (and this dead horse flogging has been going on for a number of decades now, so people would have to be blinkered not to be aware of it) and yet you still fall prey to it, well, then I can only assume people allow themselves to be taken advantage of.

This is not uncommon, we do it every day, in every social situation. In every social exchange. Where we draw boundaries, or the degree to which allow ourselves to be taken advantage of, is our decision TOO.

Ego is weird thing, people think that putting themselves into these situations may make them more spiritually advanced, more loved, more accepted, etc... and so they sell themselves for these apparent gains. But nobody forced them to sell their asses. An abusive relationship of his type requires an abuser and somebody willing to be abused. In the West entry into Buddhist religious organisations is mainly voluntary (maybe to a smaller degree, for "ethnic" Buddhists). I am sure that not everybody that put themselves into these situations was mentally retarded or a minor, so there must have been consent present.

I am glad to see people finally taking a stand against the abuse. This, at least, is heartening.

I think unfortunately that kind of logic isn't really applicable in some senses to abuse dynamics and such and I think you know that. I also think it's different to say abuse can exist in any sense and to recommend individuals to places that may have serious endemics of it.

But I will say this, thanks to courageous people that can sometimes feel immense shame, stigma, and isolation/alienation from a world they have been apart of for in some cases a decade or more to stand up and openly discuss things is heartening and I will agree with you there.

[emaho]

Maybe one of the mods could change this thread's title into something meaningful? Can't really blame anyone for not finding this topic.

[Ayu]

Whoa there! Now you're implying he took advantage of minors and people not mentally fit to give consent... Careful now...

There is at least one accusation of a young woman who was essentially offered to Sogyal by her father. The young woman was at least of legal age in her country (the Netherlands) and she may have been older. However the issue under Dutch law is likely to be the "unequal relationship" clause that recognizes differing social/power situations.

Kirt

I found the link to the story of the teenager I had in mind: https://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2 ... er-dakini/

Kirt is talking about another story: https://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2 ... irst-time/

[Ayu]

Hello dear friends from beginningless time,

https://www.lionsroar.com/letter-to-sog ... legations/

...i have always known this, that Sogyal Rinpoche both carries a great deal of wisdom as well being arrogant and aggressive. So no surprise here. Long since accepted this, enter wisdom of discernment.

As you already know, i like to hold up the word "nice" to bate aggressive people into shooting it down as insincere in an effort to call a spade a spade. In other words there is only one loving kindness, it is both loving and kind.

But, i would like to hear from others, perhaps from the "keep it real' above all else, rocknroll camp, or the honor the words of your perfect teacher even if the accompanying actions are less than perfect, is it, in this case, OK or even good/skillfull that Sogyal Rinpoche is aggressive and or arrogant? Or have i got it all wrong and i must let go of this "be a nice person"-as-foundational-on-the-path-to-elightenment mantra in favor of the "steel boot of the real world"-everything-is-already perfect-including-me mantra?

Maybe one of the mods could change this thread's title into something meaningful? Can't really blame anyone for not finding this topic.

I merged your topic in this thread. Also changed this long topic's title so other belated users can find it better.

[Kunzang]

In the USA "thirteen states and the District of Columbia have penal statutes that, in at least some circumstances, support the criminal prosecution of clergypersons engaged in sexual misconduct with congregants or parishioners" (http://www.adultsabusedbyclergy.org/statelaws.html)

Is anyone familiar with French law regarding this issue?

[Tiago Simões]

In the USA "thirteen states and the District of Columbia have penal statutes that, in at least some circumstances, support the criminal prosecution of clergypersons engaged in sexual misconduct with congregants or parishioners" (http://www.adultsabusedbyclergy.org/statelaws.html)

Is anyone familiar with French law regarding this issue?

That does not seem to clarify what counts as sexual misconduct.

[Adamantine]

Whoa there! Now you're implying he took advantage of minors and people not mentally fit to give consent... Careful now...

There is at least one accusation of a young woman who was essentially offered to Sogyal by her father. The young woman was at least of legal age in her country (the Netherlands) and she may have been older. However the issue under Dutch law is likely to be the "unequal relationship" clause that recognizes differing social/power situations.

Kirt

I found the link to the story of the teenager I had in mind: https://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2 ... er-dakini/

Kirt is talking about another story: https://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2 ... irst-time/

Ayu, in the link you shared it is clear the girl was 22 when the described events occurred. She was 14 when her father began studying with Sogyal R., not when she started serving him. So this is definitely not an issue of a teenager or an underage girl in this instance. In a sense you've illustrated Greg's accusation of gossip. Gossip arises precisely in these half-read or half-remembered liminal zones that get passed along like in the game of telephone and suddenly things are 180 degrees different than anything that actually happened. Now, this woman's story is not a great one, and I am sympathetic to growing up with Sogyal as a hero and then being seduced at age 22. But it's not the same as a teenager undergoing the same thing.

[Tenzin1]

Could someone with some knowledge on the topic of Samaya (Malcolm?) please be so kind and say a few words to clear up the following?

1) We're harming Samaya by exposing our Guru after we've have been sexually or physically abused by him
2) We should therefore keep quiet and keep practicing
3) By keeping quiet, we endanger more and more new students to build Samaya and potentially be continually abused in the future

Questions:

- Is 1) and 2) seriously the right way to deal with this, according to Vajrayana?
- With Bodhicitta in mind, how do we clear up the dilemma with regard to 3)?

Thank you in advance!

The Dalai Lama has said, in response to this type of question posted by Western Dharma center leaders, that if a teacher is behaving wrongly, and is harming people, one must speak out. HHDL did exactly that with respect to his own teacher, the Regent, when he lived in Lhasa. He also said that if crimes have been committed, one should go to the newspapers, and if necessary, to the police.

In one of the Buddha's discourses on Right Speech, he makes it clear that to remain silent in the face of wrongdoing is wrong speech. Compassion for others who may be taken advantage of should motivate us to speak out. Teachers who claim that this is damaging to the Sangha are simply shifting the blame from themselves--it's their own behavior after all, that's causing the ruckus--to their followers: a clever ploy that has worked all too often in the past. But by keeping silent, we then become part of the problem; we're enabling the problematic behavior.

"Potaliya, four kinds of people exist and can be found in the world. What kinds?
1) Some blame those who should be blamed, according to the truth, at the proper time, but do not praise those who should be praised, according to the truth, at the proper time.
2) Some praise those who should be praised, according to the truth, at the proper time, but do not blame those who should be blamed, according to the truth, at the proper time.
3) Some do not blame those who should be blamed, according to the truth, at the proper time, and do not praise those who should be praised, according to the truth, at the proper time.
4) Some blame those who should be blamed, according to the truth, at the proper time, and praise those who should be praised, according to the truth, at the proper time.

Potaliya, of all those four kinds of people, whichever blames those who should be blamed, according to the truth, at the proper time, and praises those who should be praised, according to the truth, at the proper time, this kind of person is the most beautiful and refined of these four kinds of people."


"Distance yourself from Vajra Masters who are not keeping the three vows,
Who keep on with a root downfall, who are miserly with the Dharma,
and who engage in actions that should be forsaken.
Those who worship them go to hell and so on as a result."
---"Ornament for the Essence", by Manjushrikirti

[Ayu]

There is at least one accusation of a young woman who was essentially offered to Sogyal by her father. The young woman was at least of legal age in her country (the Netherlands) and she may have been older. However the issue under Dutch law is likely to be the "unequal relationship" clause that recognizes differing social/power situations.

Kirt

I found the link to the story of the teenager I had in mind: https://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2 ... er-dakini/

Kirt is talking about another story: https://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2 ... irst-time/

Ayu, in the link you shared it is clear the girl was 22 when the described events occurred. She was 14 when her father began studying with Sogyal R., not when she started serving him. So this is definitely not an issue of a teenager or an underage girl in this instance. In a sense you've illustrated Greg's accusation of gossip. Gossip arises precisely in these half-read or half-remembered liminal zones that get passed along like in the game of telephone and suddenly things are 180 degrees different than anything that actually happened. Now, this woman's story is not a great one, and I am sympathetic to growing up with Sogyal as a hero and then being seduced at age 22. But it's not the same as a teenager undergoing the same thing.

Okay. I'm sorry. Good example, how this happens.

I think, it is often the case, as soon as someone gets demonized it is likely there is some information missing.

Thanks for pointing that out, Adamantine. Now I had to clean this thread from my own turd-sandwiches. I'm sorry and I'm going to stay out of this discussion.

[TRC]

Could someone with some knowledge on the topic of Samaya (Malcolm?) please be so kind and say a few words to clear up the following?

1) We're harming Samaya by exposing our Guru after we've have been sexually or physically abused by him
2) We should therefore keep quiet and keep practicing
3) By keeping quiet, we endanger more and more new students to build Samaya and potentially be continually abused in the future

Questions:

- Is 1) and 2) seriously the right way to deal with this, according to Vajrayana?
- With Bodhicitta in mind, how do we clear up the dilemma with regard to 3)?

Thank you in advance!

The Dalai Lama has said, in response to this type of question posted by Western Dharma center leaders, that if a teacher is behaving wrongly, and is harming people, one must speak out. HHDL did exactly that with respect to his own teacher, the Regent, when he lived in Lhasa. He also said that if crimes have been committed, one should go to the newspapers, and if necessary, to the police.

In one of the Buddha's discourses on Right Speech, he makes it clear that to remain silent in the face of wrongdoing is wrong speech. Compassion for others who may be taken advantage of should motivate us to speak out. Teachers who claim that this is damaging to the Sangha are simply shifting the blame from themselves--it's their own behavior after all, that's causing the ruckus--to their followers: a clever ploy that has worked all too often in the past. But by keeping silent, we then become part of the problem; we're enabling the problematic behavior.

"Potaliya, four kinds of people exist and can be found in the world. What kinds?
1) Some blame those who should be blamed, according to the truth, at the proper time, but do not praise those who should be praised, according to the truth, at the proper time.
2) Some praise those who should be praised, according to the truth, at the proper time, but do not blame those who should be blamed, according to the truth, at the proper time.
3) Some do not blame those who should be blamed, according to the truth, at the proper time, and do not praise those who should be praised, according to the truth, at the proper time.
4) Some blame those who should be blamed, according to the truth, at the proper time, and praise those who should be praised, according to the truth, at the proper time.

Potaliya, of all those four kinds of people, whichever blames those who should be blamed, according to the truth, at the proper time, and praises those who should be praised, according to the truth, at the proper time, this kind of person is the most beautiful and refined of these four kinds of people."


"Distance yourself from Vajra Masters who are not keeping the three vows,
Who keep on with a root downfall, who are miserly with the Dharma,
and who engage in actions that should be forsaken.
Those who worship them go to hell and so on as a result."
---"Ornament for the Essence", by Manjushrikirti

Excellent post Tenzin1, thank you for this. It is timely and goes to the truth of the matter.

[kirtu]

Ayu, in the link you shared it is clear the girl was 22 when the described events occurred. She was 14 when her father began studying with Sogyal R., not when she started serving him. So this is definitely not an issue of a teenager or an underage girl in this instance.

The young woman was at least of legal age in her country (the Netherlands) and she may have been older. However the issue under Dutch law is likely to be the "unequal relationship" clause that recognizes differing social/power situations.

Now, this woman's story is not a great one, and I am sympathetic to growing up with Sogyal as a hero and then being seduced at age 22. But it's not the same as a teenager undergoing the same thing.

She's claiming that it was sexual abuse. And under Dutch law she may be correct.

That's however for the law to decide.

However, we have a pattern of unskillful sexual manipulation at the very least.

And the accusations go far beyond that (financial and physical abuse, behavior unbecoming a person of some minimal realization).

Kirt

[TRC]

I found the link to the story of the teenager I had in mind: https://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2 ... er-dakini/

Kirt is talking about another story: https://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2 ... irst-time/

Ayu, in the link you shared it is clear the girl was 22 when the described events occurred. She was 14 when her father began studying with Sogyal R., not when she started serving him. So this is definitely not an issue of a teenager or an underage girl in this instance. In a sense you've illustrated Greg's accusation of gossip. Gossip arises precisely in these half-read or half-remembered liminal zones that get passed along like in the game of telephone and suddenly things are 180 degrees different than anything that actually happened. Now, this woman's story is not a great one, and I am sympathetic to growing up with Sogyal as a hero and then being seduced at age 22. But it's not the same as a teenager undergoing the same thing.

Okay. I'm sorry. Good example, how this happens.

I think, it is often the case, as soon as someone gets demonized it is likely there is some information missing.

Thanks for pointing that out, Adamantine. Now I had to clean this thread from my own turd-sandwiches. I'm sorry and I'm going to stay out of this discussion.

The young woman in question is Mimi, who was the focus of the 2011 Canadian documentary "In the Name of Enlightenment", where she exposes her sexual, physical and emotional abuse by Sogyal.

It is interesting that while she was not a minor at the time, she felt betrayed by her father for what she felt was being "offered up" to Sogyal, and from what I read, has since cut off further contact with her father due to this.

I think it highlights another very problematic aspect within Rigpa, where some people are indoctrinated into the cult of personality of Sogyal and the well-constructed infallible persona of him, to the extent that they perhaps believe that there would be great merit in placing one's daughter into "service" of him, rather than seeing it as it actually is, that Sogyal is just indulging in his own self-gratification and the worldly dharmas.

[Minobu]

Frankly, because I think the idea of "religious" and "organization" are, to some extent, incompatible. That's one dimension of what I mean. But I also meant "so-called" because you yourself brought in "New Age" so I was just commenting in a more general way, as well.

I hear ya..i was a lil touchy in the sense i thought you were just negating the probability of my bullshit i went through...sorry ..

but i did say

As a person who has gone through so much bullshit in various religious organizations, Buddhist, Catholic,new age nightmare,

and used commas...new age i refer to as a nightmare...lol..so it's religious organizations such as the Soka Gakki and Nichiren shoshu...which the gakki is like a corporation ... then Buddhist, then Catholic and finally the nightmare...

From my perspective, the original posting, and the fact that this thread exists, is not "brushing under the rug." However, much of what is contained in this thread is speculative, or malign, or uninformed, etc.

hopefully you are not inferring some sort of milaripa marpa justification for his actions...one of your post, i'm sorry to say , i sort of got the feeling you wanted to express this ...

and that's what I think happens in all such situations. It's inevitable, to a degree,

Yes i agree and as the day progressed and i let things go , i came to the conclusion i am getting far too weird on a forum...talking about my own stuff i don't really want to talk about either. My Karma has really been emerging in this life in a dharmic way...like why am i so interested in dharma to start with...as are 99% of the posters here...

but if we all take responsibility and don't hide things, but also don't over-elaborate or over-dramatise, we can allow as much of an unvarnished, "objective" picture to emerge as is possible.

Look this is not about if there is smoke there is fire...this is out there due to certain actions on sogyal's part..how do you over dramtize having sex with students , living like a wealthy jet setter, and punching nuns in the gut...i mean wow...how does one down play that stuff..

Again, I suppose I have to say, I am making no statement regarding what happened in this specific case regarding Sogyal Rinpoche, his students, his organization, etc. I am talking, instead, about the behavior of ourselves, as participants on a Dharma Discussion site.

the 99% i mentioned are all well under the Robe of the Buddha, and for sure this stuff is soppossed to be at the very least given some thought to.
Everything that happens in the field of the 99% is for their learning and growth.

It is also entirely possible, even more than likely, that "this Sogyal guy" may be a mix of both benefit and harm. I know that's going to rile some folks up, but in actuality we all perform good and bad actions, and this includes Lamas and Rinpoches, even famous ones. I cannot weigh or even see the karma,

Going out on a limb here...i thought about what i never understood...how did what happened to Tibet happen...nuns being raped in public, monks forced to rape nuns and kill their teachers...the whole nightmare....where did this karma arise and finally appear...is it possable a lot of this self entitlement and the rest of it was common in olden days Tibet..was there a ripening...did the Buddha know this was going on and not allow the protection of the gods and Dharma protectors...or how ever that happens...i mean really now how common was this stuff in pre china invasion...
it makes sense that it happened due to this sort of thing...i just don;t know...like most here i invested a large part of my life into this form of Buddhism...suffered through the Gakki nightmare and now am just putting it all together on me own...a meld...

As for being told certain people are "Buddhas here on Earth," per your other post.... well.......honestly, we're told to view our Vajra Masters as Buddhas. We are also told, often by those same Vajra Masters, that they themselves are NOT Buddhas. It is up to you, entirely, whether to believe those who say that so-and-so is a Buddha. People say all sorts of things. A healthy amount of skepticism, and a natural curiosity combined with a dose of caution, are ESSENTIAL for would-be Vajrayana students. This should be obvious to all, by now, but I guess it bears repeating.

Yes you are spot on here...and i guess my post concerning this was emotional and not much thought put into it....Sort of guilty of using something to make a point...
thank you for reminding me ....
yer alright and at the cause of flattery , you can be really brilliant at times.
Your whole post here is one of calm ..an island in the storm..it is needed ...after all, Soygal Rinpoche is one of our own and who among us is without being guilty as charged. what sort of rapist were we in a past life eh. how many did we murder in rage in some far off past life eh. i'm sure if it was possible to do we all have done it 500 times.....
d

EDIT: and then i read the post above after posting this....arrrgh

[Adamantine]

Ayu, in the link you shared it is clear the girl was 22 when the described events occurred. She was 14 when her father began studying with Sogyal R., not when she started serving him. So this is definitely not an issue of a teenager or an underage girl in this instance.

The young woman was at least of legal age in her country (the Netherlands) and she may have been older. However the issue under Dutch law is likely to be the "unequal relationship" clause that recognizes differing social/power situations.

Now, this woman's story is not a great one, and I am sympathetic to growing up with Sogyal as a hero and then being seduced at age 22. But it's not the same as a teenager undergoing the same thing.

She's claiming that it was sexual abuse. And under Dutch law she may be correct.

That's however for the law to decide.

However, we have a pattern of unskillful sexual manipulation at the very least.

And the accusations go far beyond that (financial and physical abuse, behavior unbecoming a person of some minimal realization).

Kirt

I'm not sure why you're quoting yourself here Kirt, I was replying
to Ayu, who implied this was a teenager and possibly even underage.

The age of consent there is 16, 22 is a long way from 16, so you were still implying she was a teenager "Of legal age, maybe older" and if you were talking about the same person than it is still misremembered and this is misleading, which again illustrates the point. Regardless of your view about the presented accusations, we should at least not inflate or exaggerate those, or it does fall to the side of gossip. That was my only point.

[kirtu]

The age of consent there is 16, 22 is a long way from 16, so you were still implying she was a teenager "Of legal age, maybe older" ...

No this is completely illogical. I implied that her experience with the teacher started when she was >= 16 but should have added "probably <= 25" (I had thought 20 but wasn't certain).

In my opinion one cannot dogmatically assert that 22 is a long way from 16. One should not project one's own views on a young, developing person that one doesn't personally know.

Kirt

[Adamantine]

The age of consent there is 16, 22 is a long way from 16, so you were still implying she was a teenager "Of legal age, maybe older" ...

No this is completely illogical. I implied that her experience with the teacher started when she was >= 16 but should have added "probably <= 25" (I had thought 20 but wasn't certain).

In my opinion one cannot dogmatically assert that 22 is a long way from 16. One should not project one's own views on a young, developing person that one doesn't personally know.

Kirt

A 12 year old is extremely different physically and psychologically than a 6 year old. An 18 yr old is significantly different than a 12 year old- in most places considered to be the age of majority, officially an adult, whereas a 12 year old is merely a pubescent pre-teen. 6 years is a very significant time of development. So from 16 to 22 is another 6 years, and a very significant gap. And that particularly is also true regarding most people's perceptions. If a 60 year old man is dating a 16 year old, even in the Netherlands where that would be legal: I'm sure it would be disturbing to many and here in the US it would be illegal. But while a 60 year old dating a 22 year old would still be judged, it wouldn't have the same connotation..and wouldn't be illegal in any country afaik. Anyway this is a sidetrack!

[Grigoris]

Oh, and just to be clear: Just because somebody is an adult it does not mean they cannot be a victim of sexual/physical/emotional abuse.

What I am objecting to is the idea that somebody that is a VOLUNTARY member of an abusive organisation is somehow 100% a victim.

[cky]

The Dalai Lama has said, in response to this type of question posted by Western Dharma center leaders, that if a teacher is behaving wrongly, and is harming people, one must speak out. HHDL did exactly that with respect to his own teacher, the Regent, when he lived in Lhasa. He also said that if crimes have been committed, one should go to the newspapers, and if necessary, to the police.

In one of the Buddha's discourses on Right Speech, he makes it clear that to remain silent in the face of wrongdoing is wrong speech. Compassion for others who may be taken advantage of should motivate us to speak out. Teachers who claim that this is damaging to the Sangha are simply shifting the blame from themselves--it's their own behavior after all, that's causing the ruckus--to their followers: a clever ploy that has worked all too often in the past. But by keeping silent, we then become part of the problem; we're enabling the problematic behavior.

[..]

Thank you!

[Adamantine]

The Dalai Lama has said, in response to this type of question posted by Western Dharma center leaders, that if a teacher is behaving wrongly, and is harming people, one must speak out. HHDL did exactly that with respect to his own teacher, the Regent, when he lived in Lhasa. He also said that if crimes have been committed, one should go to the newspapers, and if necessary, to the police.

In one of the Buddha's discourses on Right Speech, he makes it clear that to remain silent in the face of wrongdoing is wrong speech. Compassion for others who may be taken advantage of should motivate us to speak out. Teachers who claim that this is damaging to the Sangha are simply shifting the blame from themselves--it's their own behavior after all, that's causing the ruckus--to their followers: a clever ploy that has worked all too often in the past. But by keeping silent, we then become part of the problem; we're enabling the problematic behavior.

[..]

Thank you!

Which regent did HHDL speak out about? Surely not the Reting Rinpoche, who was murdered?