How “new atheism” slid into the alt-right

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Strive
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Re: How “new atheism” slid into the alt-right

Postby Strive » Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:36 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Strive wrote:I think he has racist feelings against muslims...
Muslims are not a race, they are followers of a religion. A religion that any member of the human race (of which there is one) can become members of.

most muslim ppl are arabic and have brown skin color. if muslims were white instead do u feel there would be all this hatred against them? i doubt it Grigoris

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Grigoris
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Re: How “new atheism” slid into the alt-right

Postby Grigoris » Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:50 pm

Strive wrote:
Grigoris wrote:
Strive wrote:I think he has racist feelings against muslims...
Muslims are not a race, they are followers of a religion. A religion that any member of the human race (of which there is one) can become members of.

most muslim ppl are arabic and have brown skin color. if muslims were white instead do u feel there would be all this hatred against them? i doubt it Grigoris
Do you know what a Persian is? A Turkmen? Sub-Saharan African? Etc...

What about the fact that the majority of Christians "have brown skin color"? Did that one fly under your radar? Are Christians a race too?

Get over it: Muslims are NOT a race.

AND, because you obviously missed it: there are no human races, there is a SINGLE HUMAN RACE.
Last edited by Grigoris on Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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tiagolps
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Re: How “new atheism” slid into the alt-right

Postby tiagolps » Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:51 pm

Strive wrote:
Grigoris wrote:
Strive wrote:I think he has racist feelings against muslims...
Muslims are not a race, they are followers of a religion. A religion that any member of the human race (of which there is one) can become members of.

most muslim ppl are arabic and have brown skin color. if muslims were white instead do u feel there would be all this hatred against them? i doubt it Grigoris

The country with the largest muslim population is Indonesia.
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Malcolm
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Re: How “new atheism” slid into the alt-right

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:51 pm

Strive wrote:
Grigoris wrote:
Strive wrote:I think he has racist feelings against muslims...
Muslims are not a race, they are followers of a religion. A religion that any member of the human race (of which there is one) can become members of.

most muslim ppl are arabic and have brown skin color. if muslims were white instead do u feel there would be all this hatred against them? i doubt it Grigoris



No, the majority of Muslims are non-Arabic, 80%. In other words, only 2 out of every 10 Muslims are Arabic.
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Re: How “new atheism” slid into the alt-right

Postby Dharma Flower » Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:01 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sam Harris wrote:We are at war with Islam. This is not to say that we are at war with all Muslims, but we are absolutely at war with the vision of life that is prescribed to all Muslims in the Koran.


This statement is blatantly ignorant.


He's saying that we're at war against international jihad, which is the drive to take over the world for Islam that has been part of Islam from the beginning. Millions of Asian Buddhists have died at the hands of Islamic conquest. Is there any Asian Muslim country that wasn't converted by the sword?

What Sam Harris is saying is that the Muslim world needs an enlightenment and a reformation, the same way that the West had an enlightenment and a reformation. Christianity had a very violent, brutal history too, but the West is different today because of the reformation and the enlightenment.

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Re: How “new atheism” slid into the alt-right

Postby tiagolps » Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:04 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Strive wrote:
Grigoris wrote:Muslims are not a race, they are followers of a religion. A religion that any member of the human race (of which there is one) can become members of.

most muslim ppl are arabic and have brown skin color. if muslims were white instead do u feel there would be all this hatred against them? i doubt it Grigoris
Do you know what a Persian is? A Turkmen? Sub-Saharan Africans? Etc...

Also the Hui people are an example of very non-brown skin muslims.
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Re: How “new atheism” slid into the alt-right

Postby Strive » Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:05 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Strive wrote:
Grigoris wrote:Muslims are not a race, they are followers of a religion. A religion that any member of the human race (of which there is one) can become members of.

most muslim ppl are arabic and have brown skin color. if muslims were white instead do u feel there would be all this hatred against them? i doubt it Grigoris
Do you know what a Persian is? A Turkmen? Sub-Saharan Africans? Etc...

What about the fact that the majority of Christians "have brown skin color"? Did that one fly under your radar? Are Christians a race too?

Get over it: Muslims are NOT a race.

AND, because you obviously missed it: there are no human races, there is a SINGLE HUMAN RACE.

ok my mistake but still theres alotta hatred against muslims and islam these days. why is that? why is sam harris always have to insult islam and ignore the other religions from criticism? doesnt make sense

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Malcolm
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Re: How “new atheism” slid into the alt-right

Postby Malcolm » Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:56 pm

Dharma Flower wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Sam Harris wrote:We are at war with Islam. This is not to say that we are at war with all Muslims, but we are absolutely at war with the vision of life that is prescribed to all Muslims in the Koran.


This statement is blatantly ignorant.


He's saying that we're at war against international jihad, which is the drive to take over the world for Islam that has been part of Islam from the beginning. Millions of Asian Buddhists have died at the hands of Islamic conquest. Is there any Asian Muslim country that wasn't converted by the sword?

What Sam Harris is saying is that the Muslim world needs an enlightenment and a reformation, the same way that the West had an enlightenment and a reformation. Christianity had a very violent, brutal history too, but the West is different today because of the reformation and the enlightenment.


This is an extremely narrow view of Islam. You need to read:


Elverskog, Johan (2011-06-06). Buddhism and Islam on the Silk Road (Encounters with Asia) University of Pennsylvania Press.

Otherwise, you are just reciting the biased and flawed narrative of far-right radicals such as Alex Jones, and so on.
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Re: How “new atheism” slid into the alt-right

Postby tiagolps » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:03 pm

Dharma Flower wrote:Is there any Asian Muslim country that wasn't converted by the sword?

The Mongols.
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Re: How “new atheism” slid into the alt-right

Postby Dharma Flower » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:36 pm

Malcolm wrote:Otherwise, you are just reciting the biased and flawed narrative of far-right radicals such as Alex Jones, and so on.


Can you name one majority-Muslim Asian country that was not converted by the sword? For example, do you know what Islamic conquest did to Buddhism in India, and how many people were killed?

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Re: How “new atheism” slid into the alt-right

Postby Dharma Flower » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:44 pm

tiagolps wrote:
Dharma Flower wrote:Is there any Asian Muslim country that wasn't converted by the sword?

The Mongols.


Which Mongols are you referring to? A minority of Mongolians are Muslim.

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Re: How “new atheism” slid into the alt-right

Postby Dharma Flower » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:52 pm

Malcolm wrote:This is an extremely narrow view of Islam.


You are saying things that are very hurtful for someone who actually cares about the Asian Buddhists who've been persecuted under Islam. You seem to care more about liberal politics than Asian Buddhists being persecuted. Buddhism is beyond politics, beyond right and left. I vote Democrat, but I don't place it above Buddhism.

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Re: How “new atheism” slid into the alt-right

Postby jkarlins » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:55 pm

I think we can all agree that we're interested in love and compassion, which is why we're involved in the dharma.

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Re: How “new atheism” slid into the alt-right

Postby Sherab » Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:08 pm

Wayfarer wrote:The connection with the topic is not obvious (at least to me anyway.)

It indicates that the criticism of Harris on Islam is not without basis although people may disagree as to how he criticizes.

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Re: How “new atheism” slid into the alt-right

Postby Strive » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:33 am

Malcolm wrote:
Strive wrote:
Grigoris wrote:Muslims are not a race, they are followers of a religion. A religion that any member of the human race (of which there is one) can become members of.

most muslim ppl are arabic and have brown skin color. if muslims were white instead do u feel there would be all this hatred against them? i doubt it Grigoris



No, the majority of Muslims are non-Arabic, 80%. In other words, only 2 out of every 10 Muslims are Arabic.

the muslims where i live are mostly arabic and pakistani. over past few years the muslims have suffered from mosques being vandalized and harasment from racists

steveb1
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Re: How “new atheism” slid into the alt-right

Postby steveb1 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:26 am

Dharma Flower wrote:

"He's saying that we're at war against international jihad, which is the drive to take over the world for Islam that has been part of Islam from the beginning. Millions of Asian Buddhists have died at the hands of Islamic conquest. Is there any Asian Muslim country that wasn't converted by the sword?

"What Sam Harris is saying is that the Muslim world needs an enlightenment and a reformation, the same way that the West had an enlightenment and a reformation. Christianity had a very violent, brutal history too, but the West is different today because of the reformation and the enlightenment."

Exact and to the point.

[Requisite PSA: Not all Muslims are terrorists! Only a small minority. Most are peaceful!]

Jihad is a toxic, ugly truth at the heart of Islam. Sadly, only Muslims can rid the religion and the world of Islamic terrorism via "reform". The odds are stacked against it, because Jihad is embedded in the Quran and the life of Muhammad. Allah is the first deity to teach the principles of Jihad to a human being - that is a rock-solid, ground truth. It is not an argument to say that most Muslims are not Jihadists or supporters thereof. As everyone can agree: "THEY are not the problem". The terrorists ARE.

The "peaceful Muslims" gambit is being used by the Left and by the cucked Right as a dodge, a red herring, a ploy with the intent to try to distract the public's gaze from the true horrors of Islamic terrorism, a crime that has no foreseeable end. To reform Islam is, according to everything stated and implied in the Quran, to reform Perfection. Can't be done, and all attempts to do so will end in fire and sword.

Harris is a mixed bag. On religion, I think he's mostly misled, but on political Islam he's mostly correct. And it is beneficial to recall that condemnation of Jihad is not condemnation of religious Islam.
Religious Islam began fairly peacefully in Mecca until the Prophet became increasingly megalomaniac and political, and the Meccans kicked him out. He then went to Medina where he became a politician, a judge and a warlord. When he had assembled a strong following there, he returned to Mecca and exacted a frightful vengeance upon those who had so sensibly rejected him as Muhammad the Terrorist. Thus Islam contains both the Meccan/pacifistic religious "Surrender" as well as the Medinan/terrorist "Surrender". Unfortunately, both are woven of the same cloth and cannot be separated and still be called "Islam".

Westerners whose first reaction to a Jihad attack is to rush to protect "innocent Muslims" from Western attack are simply wrong-headed. The first response needs to be quarantining, jailing, and punishing the perpetrators and their networks - plus strong, legal expressions of outrage and public protest, including demonstrations and marches. The second response needs to be taking care of all the victims, their friends-and-families, as well as any physically uninjured witnesses who are suffering from emotional trauma. The third response is to keep peaceful Muslims on the back burner of "Concern!" - because, after all, that's where they belong, since ...THEY are not the Problem.

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Re: How “new atheism” slid into the alt-right

Postby Bakmoon » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:11 am

Dharma Flower wrote:What Sam Harris is saying is that the Muslim world needs an enlightenment and a reformation, the same way that the West had an enlightenment and a reformation. Christianity had a very violent, brutal history too, but the West is different today because of the reformation and the enlightenment.

The fundamentalists are those who had a reform. The Salafi movement is all about going back to the sources without the lens of centuries of tradition and taking religious texts at face value. Extremism is a small offshoot from this.

If anything will bring peace it will be a return to traditional Islam which has four established traditions of legal interpretation, none of which are compatible with terror.

[quote=steveb1]Jihad is a toxic, ugly truth at the heart of Islam. Sadly, only Muslims can rid the religion and the world of Islamic terrorism via "reform". The odds are stacked against it, because Jihad is embedded in the Quran and the life of Muhammad. Allah is the first deity to teach the principles of Jihad to a human being - that is a rock-solid, ground truth. It is not an argument to say that most Muslims are not Jihadists or supporters thereof. As everyone can agree: "THEY are not the problem". The terrorists ARE.

The "peaceful Muslims" gambit is being used by the Left and by the cucked Right as a dodge, a red herring, a ploy with the intent to try to distract the public's gaze from the true horrors of Islamic terrorism, a crime that has no foreseeable end. To reform Islam is, according to everything stated and implied in the Quran, to reform Perfection. Can't be done, and all attempts to do so will end in fire and sword.

Harris is a mixed bag. On religion, I think he's mostly misled, but on political Islam he's mostly correct. And it is beneficial to recall that condemnation of Jihad is not condemnation of religious Islam.
Religious Islam began fairly peacefully in Mecca until the Prophet became increasingly megalomaniac and political, and the Meccans kicked him out. He then went to Medina where he became a politician, a judge and a warlord. When he had assembled a strong following there, he returned to Mecca and exacted a frightful vengeance upon those who had so sensibly rejected him as Muhammad the Terrorist. Thus Islam contains both the Meccan/pacifistic religious "Surrender" as well as the Medinan/terrorist "Surrender". Unfortunately, both are woven of the same cloth and cannot be separated and still be called "Islam".

Westerners whose first reaction to a Jihad attack is to rush to protect "innocent Muslims" from Western attack are simply wrong-headed. The first response needs to be quarantining, jailing, and punishing the perpetrators and their networks - plus strong, legal expressions of outrage and public protest, including demonstrations and marches. The second response needs to be taking care of all the victims, their friends-and-families, as well as any physically uninjured witnesses who are suffering from emotional trauma. The third response is to keep peaceful Muslims on the back burner of "Concern!" - because, after all, that's where they belong, since ...THEY are not the Problem.[/quote]
I have read the relevant passages of the Qur'an and they don't sound to me like they allow for indiscriminate violence. Also, traditional Islamic law hasn't understood it to indicate indiscriminate violence either.

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Re: How “new atheism” slid into the alt-right

Postby steveb1 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:22 am

If returning to older, more pacifistic traditions will turn the Jihad tide, I'm all for it - hasten the day.

:)

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Re: How “new atheism” slid into the alt-right

Postby Bakmoon » Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:54 am

steveb1 wrote:If returning to older, more pacifistic traditions will turn the Jihad tide, I'm all for it - hasten the day.

:)

The real key to this will be stopping Saudi Arabia from using their oil money to spread Salafi teachings all over the Muslim world, and to rebuild the key institutions of religious education that were lost in Muslim countries that were colonized.

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tiagolps
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Re: How “new atheism” slid into the alt-right

Postby tiagolps » Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:05 am

Dharma Flower wrote:
tiagolps wrote:
Dharma Flower wrote:Is there any Asian Muslim country that wasn't converted by the sword?

The Mongols.


Which Mongols are you referring to? A minority of Mongolians are Muslim.

The mongols which invaded the Muslim world.
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- Chapter 5, The Inconceivable Liberation, The Teaching of Vimalakīrti


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