Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

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Malcolm
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:17 am

Konchog1 wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
It also gives warning signs that one has broken samaya:
  • These are the warning signs of broken samaya:
    various misfortunes arise,
    diseases are rampant and harmful,
    various contagious diseases occur,
    and there are also provocations and misguiders.
    If one is killed, one becomes a hell being.
    One’s eyes cannot see form.
    One cannot hear and one’s work cannot be done.
    Leprosy and blistering diseases arise.
    Thieves and royal punishments occur.
    One contracts contagious diseases others do not get.
    One’s sons and daughters die.
    The whole country arises as one’s enemy.
    One’s activities become completely pointless.
    When such warning signs arise,
    recite a confession as previously explained.
    If confessions are recited,
    then these signs will be successfully averted.
Do this mean the Three Heaps Sutra or something else?
the footnotes on the tantra refer to a different text.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Jyotish
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by Jyotish » Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:18 am

Great thread here. Thanks to all questioners and answerers.

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Konchog1
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Konchog1 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:36 am

Malcolm wrote:
Konchog1 wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
It also gives warning signs that one has broken samaya:
  • These are the warning signs of broken samaya:
    various misfortunes arise,
    diseases are rampant and harmful,
    various contagious diseases occur,
    and there are also provocations and misguiders.
    If one is killed, one becomes a hell being.
    One’s eyes cannot see form.
    One cannot hear and one’s work cannot be done.
    Leprosy and blistering diseases arise.
    Thieves and royal punishments occur.
    One contracts contagious diseases others do not get.
    One’s sons and daughters die.
    The whole country arises as one’s enemy.
    One’s activities become completely pointless.
    When such warning signs arise,
    recite a confession as previously explained.
    If confessions are recited,
    then these signs will be successfully averted.
Do this mean the Three Heaps Sutra or something else?
the footnotes on the tantra refer to a different text.
Any chance of finding this in English?
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats

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Malcolm
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:42 am

Konchog1 wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Konchog1 wrote:Do this mean the Three Heaps Sutra or something else?
the footnotes on the tantra refer to a different text.
Any chance of finding this in English?
In 2018 when my translation of the Rigpa Rangshar will be published by Wisdom.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Adamantine
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Adamantine » Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:47 am

Malcolm wrote:
Konchog1 wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
the footnotes on the tantra refer to a different text.
Any chance of finding this in English?
In 2018 when my translation of the Rigpa Rangshar will be published by Wisdom.

Hehehe.. nice slow build to the plug! :smile:
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by kirtu » Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:48 am

makewhisper wrote:[Topic split from Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations]
Malcolm wrote:These days, empowerments are handed out as a means of attracting followers to people who no idea what they are doing, even though sometimes they have been "following" Tibetan Buddhism for decades. How can one even imagine that any of these people have actually received samaya? It is only possible to believe this if one thinks that merely attending a ritual and repeating some words has the power to confer samaya. I don't believe this, but you are free to disagree.
Some of this is needless and partially reflects some cynicism.

Of course empowerment cannot be conferred in the rituals themselves. But they are the skilful means through which the empowerment is conferred. But the student has to do their part.
makewhisper wrote:... what conditions are necessary for a successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?
A qualified guru, technically an acceptably conducted empowerment ritual (this can be quite broad but the lineage lams are of course experts), and a qualified student. How is the student qualified? In the Vajrayana they have to be sincere in their intention to take the empowerment as a means to attain enlightenment for all beings. So the student must have some minimal but sincere Bodhicitta. They if they practice everything will develop from that.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by pael » Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:12 am

Malcolm wrote:
Konchog1 wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
the footnotes on the tantra refer to a different text.
Any chance of finding this in English?
In 2018 when my translation of the Rigpa Rangshar will be published by Wisdom.
Could you tell does ''purify broken samaya in three years or else'' thing come from this text?
If not, from which text this time limit comes from?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

muni
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by muni » Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:23 am

Again fellow practitioners come in mind, who got teachings from Rinpoche, all this is about their precious master. A master is more important than anything else in life for those who want to awaken for the cost of all and all!!!!! It is already published. Can you imagine how further talk is for those fellows who faithfully followed the teachings to be able to awaken? ( it is already published)
Can you imagine to be in their shoes? When faith fades, it is like the ground is taken away from under your feet and liberation can look to be gone! I really pray may faith in the liberating dharma not fade, but grow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There are dear fellows who experienced to be victim, so very very sorry!
There are those many who perceived Rinpoche not as an ordinary human, a self who is so or so. Not so much because there is such a special master out there, not at all, but because of their state of mind by the teachings.
There are those who trusted the guidance, even by the wrathful and strange behaviour.

In any case Wisdom's Compassion is always and always “present”, cannot be anywhere, is not in a location, no location is in inseparable devotion-compassion.

ps Perception of a mundane appearing master is mundane perception.

o o
“ Only the development of compassion and understanding for others can bring us the tranquility and happiness we all seek. ”
H H Dalai Lama

"Relax." nirvana-samsara do not stray from spaciousness.

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by philji » Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:54 am

:smile:
Malcolm wrote:
pael wrote:I want to know how deep I am in samaya. ChNN manifested sickness after I sent questions to him with e-mail on 11th of May 2017. Is this my fault?

Oh lord, no. You should not think that way at all.
This is the danger of having a teacher whom you cannot communicate with and therefore end up asking questions on internet forums..

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conebeckham
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Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by conebeckham » Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:12 pm

Malcolm wrote:
conebeckham wrote: I did not make that argument. Nor do I intend to.

I do, however, not mind being wrong. I do not believe there have been full wangkurs given on-line, where the vidhyadhara vows are recited. If I am wrong, so be it. Someone can correct me with specific examples, and I will eat my proverbial hat. If such full wangkur were in fact given, live via the internet, it would follow that, as is traditional, the explanation regarding the various samayas would also be given, in detail, just as it is, in full wangkurs, in "meat space."
What is the difference between the internet and sitting in a room watching the whole thing on a big screen with the lama hundreds of feet away being listened too on a local fm radio channel, and the samaya substances just being handed out to 4,000 people at the end? The samaya substances? Is that all? Geographical proximity? As far as I can tell, the only difference between an empowerment given live online and one being given locally is the preference of the lama.
On reflection, I will agree with this position, Malcolm. As long as it's a "live streamed" event, happening in real time, I think it's valid. Or, potentially valid. I will observe that even amongst people in close proximity to the Vajra Master, it's impossible to say who "got it" and who didn't, or at what level.....though, in a general sense, as a "permisison" to practice a given sadhana or deity it's clear. Again, this is why I said, earlier on, that we are encouraged to take the same empowerment many times, if it relates to our main practices.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Malcolm
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:51 pm

conebeckham wrote:
On reflection, I will agree with this position, Malcolm.
Come on, cone, if you agree with me there is nothing to discuss!
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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conebeckham
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by conebeckham » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:01 pm

Malcolm wrote:
conebeckham wrote:
On reflection, I will agree with this position, Malcolm.
Come on, cone, if you agree with me there is nothing to discuss!
A Ha Haha!

You are still of the opinion that watching a previously-recorded video doesn't confer empowerment, I assume?
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Malcolm
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:07 pm

conebeckham wrote:
You are still of the opinion that watching a previously-recorded video doesn't confer empowerment, I assume?
Of course.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

MalaBeads
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by MalaBeads » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:

The student has to actually know what they are doing — this is the main criteria.
In days ago...the only way to see a lama was to take an empowerment. They would come into town, give an empowerment and then leave without a word. So much for checking them out...let alone for up to 12 years!
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.

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Malcolm
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:40 pm

MalaBeads wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

The student has to actually know what they are doing — this is the main criteria.
In days ago...the only way to see a lama was to take an empowerment. They would come into town, give an empowerment and then leave without a word. So much for checking them out...let alone for up to 12 years!
Yes, so one cannot really take any samayas they handed out very seriously, can one?

Seems a very risky thing to give empowerments to a bunch of students you do not know, considering all the rhetoric about it.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

MalaBeads
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by MalaBeads » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:55 pm

Malcolm wrote:
MalaBeads wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

The student has to actually know what they are doing — this is the main criteria.
In days ago...the only way to see a lama was to take an empowerment. They would come into town, give an empowerment and then leave without a word. So much for checking them out...let alone for up to 12 years!
Yes, so one cannot really take any samayas they handed out very seriously, can one?

Seems a very risky thing to give empowerments to a bunch of students you do not know, considering all the rhetoric about it.

Fortunately or not, I never did take the empowerments all that seriously. Certainly not as seriously as is warranted by all discussion. I knew why I was there and also knew that I did not understand a whit of what was happening. I can't say that I still really understand it. That is certainly why I appreciated dzongsar khyentse's long albeit rambling "explanation". If only something like that had been available then! But what can we really say? We are among the first, the pioneers if you will, of dharma coming to the west. So of course there will be things we did not understand. The hazards of the first generation. And the dumb! But then, I shouldn't be quite so hard on myself. I was there for the experience, not for "enlightenment". Live and learn I guess.
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.

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Malcolm
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:02 pm

MalaBeads wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
MalaBeads wrote:
In days ago...the only way to see a lama was to take an empowerment. They would come into town, give an empowerment and then leave without a word. So much for checking them out...let alone for up to 12 years!
Yes, so one cannot really take any samayas they handed out very seriously, can one?

Seems a very risky thing to give empowerments to a bunch of students you do not know, considering all the rhetoric about it.

Fortunately or not, I never did take the empowerments all that seriously. Certainly not as seriously as is warranted by all discussion. I knew why I was there and also knew that I did not understand a whit of what was happening. I can't say that I still really understand it. That is certainly why I appreciated dzongsar khyentse's long albeit rambling "explanation". If only something like that had been available then! But what can we really say? We are among the first, the pioneers if you will, of dharma coming to the west. So of course there will be things we did not understand. The hazards of the first generation. And the dumb! But then, I shouldn't be quite so hard on myself. I was there for the experience, not for "enlightenment". Live and learn I guess.
Basically, what happens when unethical teachers breach their commitments with their students is that the establishment resorts to tribal punishment memes. This is what Orgyen Tobgyal did when he accused the students at Rigpa of breaking their samaya.

It is understandable, albeit wrong-headed. It is like claiming, "Well, you took Ramsey Bolton as your guru, and now you are just screwed— your bad."

Tantric commitments are for encouraging harmony in a Vajrayāna Sangha, and the guru is the head of that Sangha. But when a guru's unethical actions threaten that Sangha itself, there is really something for the students to to say and something for them to, and they should resist misguided traditionalists who go all Tilopa on them.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

MalaBeads
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by MalaBeads » Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:11 pm

It also goes to what dzongsar khyentse's said about how Tibetan teachers taught westerners as if they were Tibetans. That said a lot to me. It seems (now) as if the Tibetan teachers assumed we knew far more than we knew. I think djkr mentioned that only Trungpa Rinpoche taught westerners as if they knew nothing! And of course we didnt(know anything - then) Actually, I was able to see Trungpa twice I think it was (without any empowerment I might add) and I decided then that I was still too scared of him to be his student. I wasn't ready I guess.
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.

Lhasa
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by Lhasa » Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:20 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
conebeckham wrote: I did not make that argument. Nor do I intend to.

I do, however, not mind being wrong. I do not believe there have been full wangkurs given on-line, where the vidhyadhara vows are recited. If I am wrong, so be it. Someone can correct me with specific examples, and I will eat my proverbial hat. If such full wangkur were in fact given, live via the internet, it would follow that, as is traditional, the explanation regarding the various samayas would also be given, in detail, just as it is, in full wangkurs, in "meat space."
What is the difference between the internet and sitting in a room watching the whole thing on a big screen with the lama hundreds of feet away being listened too on a local fm radio channel, and the samaya substances just being handed out to 4,000 people at the end? The samaya substances? Is that all? Geographical proximity? As far as I can tell, the only difference between an empowerment given live online and one being given locally is the preference of the lama.
On reflection, I will agree with this position, Malcolm. As long as it's a "live streamed" event, happening in real time, I think it's valid. Or, potentially valid. I will observe that even amongst people in close proximity to the Vajra Master, it's impossible to say who "got it" and who didn't, or at what level.....though, in a general sense, as a "permisison" to practice a given sadhana or deity it's clear. Again, this is why I said, earlier on, that we are encouraged to take the same empowerment many times, if it relates to our main practices.
I think it also depends on the capacity of the Lama. Recently a Bonpo Lama, Yangton Lama Tashi Gyaltsen Rinpoche, gave a live-stream teaching and he made a point of addressing the online students and told us that just like he generates the deity in his practice, he was generating us in his mind and including us in the mandala of the teachings. Wow!! At the end of the teachings after everyone there had offered katas and he had touched the text to their hands and crown, he gestured to the video guy to bring the camera up to him and he placed the text on top of the computer with the text in camera view. And afterward, he just grinned at the camera. He gets it. :twothumbsup: If the Lama ignores the camera and does nothing to include the online folks then it feels more like being a watcher than a participant.

philji
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by philji » Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:33 pm

Many comments on here about the fragility of samaya when a Rinpoche rolls into town, gives empoerment and then disappears again..not knowing the students and students not knowing him...the dharma centre oromoting the event heavily advertising event wherever it can.
However from personal experience in Nepal and i imagine it to be similar in tibet...when an empowerment is given, hundreds and hundreds of tibetans descend on the place to receive it and then go their merry ways... so it seems neither environment is that conducive for empowerment and samaya commitment.. so does it even matter???

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