What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

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Queequeg
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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by Queequeg » Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:24 pm

I'll just leave this here. A letter in reply to Toki Jonin written in 1279 at Minobu.
In your letter you asked: “You have told me that an object of devotion should be made of Shakyamuni Buddha of the essential teaching, who attained enlightenment in the remote past, attended by the four bodhisattvas who sprang from the earth and who have been his disciples since that remote past. If this is correct, when is such an object of devotion to be established?”...

...Those Buddhist scholars and teachers who appeared in this world during the Former and Middle Days of the Law did not establish this object of devotion because they honored the Buddha’s prohibition. Had an object of devotion of Shakyamuni Buddha, the lord of teachings, who attained enlightenment in the remote past and his attendants ever been made during the Former and Middle Days, it would have been like the sun appearing at night or the moon shining during the day. Because Bodhisattva Superior Practices would certainly appear and establish this object of devotion in the first five hundred years of the Latter Day, those four ranks of scholars and teachers who appeared during the Former and Middle Days did not even describe it in words. Nāgārjuna and Vasubandhu knew of it in their hearts, but did not speak about it to others. The Great Teacher T’ien-t’ai Chih-che also knew of it, but as he was a bodhisattva of the theoretical teaching, though he taught it in part, he did not expound its true meaning. He taught it indistinctly, like the cry of a cuckoo that one hears just before waking from a dream. Other Buddhist teachers did not say so much as a single word about it. For at Eagle Peak, Shakyamuni Buddha strictly prohibited those scholars and teachers who were bodhisattvas of the theoretical teaching, and who would appear during the two thousand years of the Former and Middle Days of the Law, from disclosing prior to the Latter Day of the Law even indirectly anything about Shakyamuni Buddha of the essential teaching, who attained enlightenment in the remote past, and the four Bodhisattvas of the Earth led by Superior Practices, who have accompanied him ever since.

Now that we have entered the Latter Day of the Law, an object of devotion should be made of the original Buddha flanked by his original attendants, since, according to the Buddha’s golden words, this is the most appropriate time. Because this age corresponds to the predicted time, the Bodhisattvas of the Earth will appear soon and establish an object of devotion of the four bodhisattvas. Now is truly the proper time. That is why the Great Teacher T’ien-t’ai longed for this age, saying, “In the last five-hundred-year period, the mystic way will spread and benefit humankind far into the future,” and why the Great Teacher Dengyō yearned for this time, saying, “The Former and Middle Days are almost over, and the Latter Day is near at hand. Now indeed is the time when the one vehicle of the Lotus Sutra will prove how perfectly it fits the capacities of all people.”
On Establishing the Four Bodhisattvas as the Object of Devotion

Incidentally, this gosho also reads:
You also mentioned in your letter that the people connected with Ōta Jōmyō are apparently saying that the theoretical teaching of the Lotus Sutra can in no way lead to enlightenment. They are making a serious mistake. Remember this about the theoretical and essential teachings of the Lotus Sutra: Which is shallow and which profound, which superior and which inferior, which lenient and which severe, and which subordinate and which primary must be judged in accordance with the time and the people’s capacity. There are three periods in which the sacred teachings of the Buddha’s lifetime should be propagated; the people’s capacity should be thought of in the same way.

In the first five hundred years of the Former Day of the Law following the Buddha’s passing, only Hinayana teachings spread, while in the next five hundred years, provisional Mahayana teachings spread. The thousand years of the Middle Day of the Law saw the rise of the theoretical teaching. In the beginning of the Latter Day of the Law, only the essential teaching spreads, but even so, the theoretical teaching should not be discarded. Nowhere in the entire Lotus Sutra do we find a passage suggesting that we should discard the first fourteen chapters, which comprise the theoretical teaching. When we distinguish between the theoretical and the essential teachings on the basis of the threefold classification of the entire body of the Buddha’s teachings, the pre-Lotus Sutra teachings were to be spread in the Former Day, and the theoretical teaching, in the Middle Day, but the Latter Day is the time to propagate the essential teaching. In the present period the essential teaching is primary, while the theoretical teaching is subordinate. But those who therefore discard the latter, saying it is not the way to enlightenment, and believe only in the former, have not yet understood the doctrine of Nichiren’s true intention. Theirs is a completely distorted view.

This doctrine concerning the theoretical and essential teachings is not my own [but was expounded by the Buddha]. Those who would distort it can only be possessed by the heavenly devil, or Pāpīyas, and will topple others along with themselves into the great citadel of the hell of incessant suffering. How foolish they are! Teach this doctrine to others clearly as I have taught you these many years. Those who call themselves my disciples and practice the Lotus Sutra should all practice as I do. If they do, Shakyamuni, Many Treasures, Shakyamuni’s emanations throughout the ten directions, and the ten demon daughters will protect them. Yet, for all that, [some people associated with Ōta Jōmyō distort the teaching]. I cannot fathom what could be in their minds.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by Minobu » Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:29 pm

This need to have Nichiren Daishonin be The Primordial Buddha of Kuon Ganjo is just that...a need for some.
It works well with the creation of a DaiGohonzon and the newly formed Nichiren ShoShu sect who were the only ones designing this teaching.
unfortunately it detracts from the real teaching and who and what Sakyamuni Buddha and all his emanations are.

it's a new teaching that jazzy believes in...it's a first and a one off teaching, only adopted by the gakki because of their affiliation with the one off sect ShoShu . Once some sect turns you into a ranting fanatic and you are right and others are wrong and bad...it becomes poison...once you call others evil ...well your poisoned by the very thing you cherish.

all it does is create a super sect who are the custodians of something that actually no one can be a custodian of except each individual through their faith.
The beauty of Lotus Buddhism is it only is produced through the individual that takes up the practice.
No one , Even Nichiren Daishonin is it solely...it is a practice for one's self and others.
it's like trying to own and be the custodian of Mother Nature, the laws of physics , gravity, that which causes the soil to grow stuff from seed.

once you politicize it like Shoshu did in order to rule over those that practice it...you defile the very nature of it...

that being said even the poisoned are right in some of their beliefs and they do drink from the same cup daily...so there is hope...

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by DGA » Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:40 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:27 pm
Straight forward:

From Lotus Sutra Chapter 11:
At that time Bodhisattva Mahāpratibhāna spoke to the Buddha through the Tathāgata’s transcendent powers, saying: “O Bhagavat! We all want to see this buddha’s form.”

The Buddha answered Bodhisattva Mahāsattva Mahāprati bhāna, saying:

“This Buddha Prabhūtaratna made a great vow, saying: Whenever my jeweled stupa appears in the presence of a buddha in order to hear the Lotus Sutra, if that buddha wants to show my form to the fourfold assembly he should gather into one place all his magically created forms that are teaching the Dharma in the worlds of the ten directions. After that my form will appear.

“O Mahāpratibhāna! I shall now gather all my magically created forms who are teaching the Dharma in the worlds of the ten directions.”

Mahāpratibhāna spoke to the Buddha, saying: “O Bhagavat! We also strongly wish to see the Bhagavat’s magically created forms, to honor and pay homage to them!”

Then the Buddha emitted a ray of light from the tuft of white hair between his eyebrows; and they immediately saw the buddhas in five hundred myriads of koṭis of nayutas of lands in the eastern direction equal in number to the sands of the Ganges River. In these lands the soil was of crystal and adorned with treasure trees and jeweled garments; and these lands were full of innumerable thousands of myriads of koṭis of bodhisattvas. Jeweled drapes were hung everywhere and were covered with jeweled nets. All the buddhas in these lands were teaching the Dharma in most harmonious voices. They also saw immeasurable thousands of myriads of koṭis of bodhisattvas, filling all the lands and teaching the Dharma to sentient beings.

The other directions to the south, north, and west, the four intermediary directions, and the upper and lower regions were also illuminated by the ray of light emitted from the tuft of white hair between the Buddha’s eyebrows; and they were also exactly like this.

Then all the buddhas in the ten directions each addressed the assembly of bodhisattvas, saying: “O sons of a virtuous family! We will now go to the place where Śākyamuni is in the sahā world and pay homage to the jeweled stupa of the Tathāgata Prabhūtaratna.”

At that time the sahā world was immediately purified; the earth was of lapis lazuli, adorned with jeweled trees, its roads laid out like a chessboard and bordered with golden cords; and there were no villages, towns, cities, oceans, rivers, mountains, streams, forests, or groves. Very precious incense was burning, māndā rava flowers were spread everywhere on the earth, and it was covered with jeweled nets and drapes from which jeweled bells hung. With the exception of this assembly the devas and human beings were all moved to other lands.

Then the buddhas each took one great bodhisattva as an attendant and arrived under a jeweled tree in the sahā world. Each jeweled tree was five hundred yojanas in height and adorned with branches, leaves, blossoms, and fruits in their proper turn. Under all these jeweled trees were lion seats five yojanas in height that were adorned with great jewels. The buddhas each sat cross-legged on these seats. They sat one after another in this way, filling the great manifold cosmos. Yet the separate forms of Śākyamuni Buddha of even one direction had not all arrived yet.

At that time Śākyamuni Buddha, wanting to be able to receive all of his magically created forms, transformed and purified two hundred myriads of koṭis of nayutas of lands in each of the world-systems in the eight directions. There were no hells, hungry ghosts, animals, or asuras; and all the devas and humans were moved to other lands.

In these transformed lands the earth was made of lapis lazuli and adorned with jeweled trees. These trees were five hundred yojanas in height and were adorned with branches, leaves, blossoms, and fruits in their proper turn. Under every tree was a jeweled lion seat five yojanas in height which was adorned with various jewels. There were no oceans, rivers, or great mountain kings such as Mount Mucilinda, Mount Mahāmucilinda, Mount Cakravāḍa, Mount Mahācakravāḍa, or Mount Sumeru. The lands were all made into one buddha world throughout. The jeweled earth was level and covered everywhere with jewel-studded drapes. Banners and umbrellas were set up, precious incense was burning, and heavenly jeweled flowers covered the ground everywhere.

Then Śākyamuni Buddha again transformed and purified two hundred myriads of koṭis of nayutas of lands in each of the eight directions so that the buddhas could come and sit. There were no hells, hungry ghosts, animals, or asuras; and the devas and humans were moved to other lands.

In the transformed lands the earth was of lapis lazuli and adorned with jeweled trees. The trees were five hundred yojanas in height and were adorned with branches, leaves, blossoms, and fruits in their proper turn. Under these trees were jeweled lion seats that were five yojanas in height and decorated with great jewels. There were no oceans, rivers, or great mountain kings such as Mount Mucilinda, Mount Mahāmucilinda, Mount Cakravāḍa, Mount Mahācakravāḍa, or Mount Sumeru. The lands were all made into one buddha world throughout. The jeweled earth was level and covered everywhere with jewel-studded drapes. Banners and umbrellas were set up, precious incense was burning, and heavenly jeweled flowers covered the ground everywhere.

Then the magically created forms of Śākyamuni Buddha, which had been teaching the Dharma in the hundreds of thousands of myriads of koṭis of nayutas of lands in the east, equal in number to the sands of the Ganges River, gathered here.

In this way all the buddhas in the ten directions gradually came until all were assembled, sitting in the eight directions.
Please help me understand this. Are you saying that all the Buddhas of the three times are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha because they are all his emanation?

If so, what is the difference between a follower (disciple?) and an emanation? Are these two terms translating the same or different characters?

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Queequeg
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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by Queequeg » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:22 pm

DGA wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:40 pm
If so, what is the difference between a follower (disciple?) and an emanation? Are these two terms translating the same or different characters?
I just quoted the text. It speaks for itself. As for emanation/disciple, just a flourish. Not sure about the characters.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by Caoimhghín » Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:47 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:22 pm
Not sure about the characters.
Lotus Sūtra 11 [T09n0262_004, go to 0032c22]

佛告大樂說菩薩摩訶薩:「是多寶佛,有深重願:
The Buddha told Mahāsukhavacana Bodhisattva Mahāsattva: "This Prabhūtaratna Buddha, his profound oath he swore:

『若我寶塔,為聽法華經故,出於諸佛前時,
'As for my jewelled stūpa, for hearing the dharma of the Lotus Sūtra is it's purpose, going forth to all Buddhas to appear before them,

其有欲以我身示四眾者,彼佛分身諸佛一一在於十方世界說法,
if there exists a desiring that my body might be revealed to the four communities as they are called, those that are the Buddha's divided body[,] all Buddhas one by one in the ten-directional lokadhātu expounding dharma,

盡還集一處,然後我身乃出現耳。』
all return gathering in one place, truly thereafter my body thus appears visible on all sides.' [...]"

大樂說!我分身諸佛一一在於十方世界說法者,今應當集。」
Mahāsukhavacana! My divided body[,] all Buddhas one by one existing in the ten-directional lokadhātu expounding dharma, presently now will gather."


Ichinen sanzen in a nutshell, one could say?

The term in question is 分身 (fēnshēn, funjin), a 'divided body', or a 'division body' or 'seperated body' or 'seperation body'. In addition to this, all of these instances of reading 身 as 'body' can also mean 'bodies' possibly.

It seems that there is a tradition in at least some traditions of Nichiren Buddhism for translating 分身 as emanation Buddha, but this seems like a doctrine-first translation versus a translation designed to find close semantic parallels to the original. Calling 分身 'emanation Buddhas' is not wrong, per se, although it reads 身 as 'Buddha' rather than 'body/kāya', but indeed what is shown to be the 分身 are 諸佛一一 (all/myriad Buddhas one by one), so that rendering is right in its way.

One of the things adding so much ambiguity is the English word 'emanation/emanate' itself, and its wide range of meanings. My breath emanates from my mouth. My arms emanate from my shoulders. It has such a wide range of meanings.
Last edited by Caoimhghín on Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di:
yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia.

"All formations are inconstant," he said.
"All formations are stressful," he said.
"All phenomena are selfless," he said.
When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity.

(Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by JazzIsTvRicky » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:01 am

Josei Toda

“Another striking difference is found in the method of’ teaching. Shakyamuni led his disciples to the Hokekyo with provisional teachings but the Daishonin declared the law of Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo once for all. Buddhist teachings to guide his people.  

Shakyamuni was the first Buddha in recorded history, but from the viewpoint of eternal life clarified in Buddhism, Nichiren Daishonin is the original Buddha who awakened all other Buddhas to the truth of ‘life’ and the universe. The relationship between the two is comparable to that of the moon shining in the nocturnal sky and its reflection on the surface of a pond.  This is obvious from a phrase from the Juryo Chapter of the Hokekyo that reads, “Once I also practiced the Bodhisattva austerities.” (Ga hon gyo bosatsu do). If he actually “practiced Bodhisattva austerities,” he must have done so under some other Buddha.

Yet, if he were the original Buddha, he would have made himself the object of worship. This is obviously irreconcilable. The truth is that he practiced Buddhism under the True Buddha who emerged in Mappo as Nichiren Daishonin.  

In other words, Nichiren Daishonin is the ‘life’ of Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo while Shakyamuni attained enlightenment by worshipping the Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo.  With his Hokekyo, Shakyamuni not only made his disciples attain enlightenment but also predicted the advent in Mappo of the True Buddha whom he called in the sutra ‘the votary of the Hokekyo’.

The True Buddha showed himself as Bodhisattva Jogyo at the ceremony of the Treasure Tower, where Shakyamuni transferred the essence of the Hokekyo to this ephemeral figure of the True Buddha.  Therefore, both the votary of the Hokekyo and Bodhisattva Jogyo in Shakyamuni’s supreme sutra (Hokekyo) signifies Nichiren Daishonin, the True Buddha.  

A passage from the Yakuo Chapter of the Hokekyo reads, “At the beginning of Mappo, you should achieve Kosen-rufu and never let it (True Buddhism) perish.”  Another excerpt from the Jinriki Chapter says, “He (Bodhisattva Jogyo) will spread Buddhism in this world, dispelling the darkness from mankind and leading innumerable Bodhisattvas to the Supreme Vehicle [of Buddhahood] in the end.”  

Therefore, Tendai (T’ien-t’ai) said, “The Mystic Law will benefit [mankind] in the fifth ‘half-millennium’ and far beyond into the future.” Myoraku (Miao-lo) interpreted Tendai’s words saying, “There are surely inconspicuous benefits at the beginning of Mappo.” In addition, Dengyo of Japan said, “Shoho and Zoho have almost passed and Mappo is very near. It is the very time when people should believe in the Supreme Vehicle of Hokekyo.”  Thus all the Buddhas paid highest respect to the True Buddha who was sure to appear in Mappo. As for the distinction of the teachings of Shakyamuni and the Daishonin, the Gosho makes it clear in the passage that reads, “I, Nichiren, have inscribed my life in sumi ink so that you may believe with your whole heart. The Buddha’s will is the Hokekyo - to the soul of Nichiren, there is nothing which supersedes Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.”  

Shakyamuni and the Hokekyo  Nichiren Daishonin stated in His Senji Sho (On the Selection of the Time), “The time when, as predicted in the Daishikkyo, the pure Law is lost will be followed by the time when Kosen-rufu of the Great Pure Law of the Hokekyo will be achieved not only in Japan but also throughout the entire world.”

In this passage, the ‘Pure Law’ indicates Shakyamuni’s Buddhism and the ‘Great Pure Law’, the Daishonin’s.  All these quotations lead to the conclusion that the True Buddhism of Nichiren Daishonin in Mappo should displace Shakyamuni’s Buddhism.”
A فوتاري أوف ذي غوهونزون أوف نام ميوهو رينج كيو

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by Caoimhghín » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:41 am

JazzIsTvRicky wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:01 am
Josei Toda

“Another striking difference is found in the method of’ teaching. Shakyamuni led his disciples to the Hokekyo with provisional teachings but the Daishonin declared the law of Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo once for all. Buddhist teachings to guide his people.  

Shakyamuni was the first Buddha in recorded history, but from the viewpoint of eternal life clarified in Buddhism, Nichiren Daishonin is the original Buddha who awakened all other Buddhas to the truth of ‘life’ and the universe. The relationship between the two is comparable to that of the moon shining in the nocturnal sky and its reflection on the surface of a pond.  This is obvious from a phrase from the Juryo Chapter of the Hokekyo that reads, “Once I also practiced the Bodhisattva austerities.” (Ga hon gyo bosatsu do). If he actually “practiced Bodhisattva austerities,” he must have done so under some other Buddha.

Yet, if he were the original Buddha, he would have made himself the object of worship. This is obviously irreconcilable. The truth is that he practiced Buddhism under the True Buddha who emerged in Mappo as Nichiren Daishonin.  

In other words, Nichiren Daishonin is the ‘life’ of Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo while Shakyamuni attained enlightenment by worshipping the Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo.

[...]
It seems that Jōsei Toda has arrived at the conclusion that Śākyamuni Buddha did not teach the Lotus Sūtra, and that Śākyamuni Buddha does not employ skillful means, such as manifesting the practicing of bodhisattva austerities. This has lead him to conclude that Śākyamuni Buddha is not Śākyamuni Buddha, as Śākyamuni Buddha cannot have employed skillful means to manifest the practicing of bodhisattva austerities, and therefore, since Śākyamuni Buddha is not Śākyamuni Buddha, and did not preach the Lotus Sūtra, that it must have been the Venerable Nichiren who is actually Śākyamuni Buddha. Very convoluted. He has concluded that the sūtra itself is incoherent due to his misunderstanding.

Jōsei Toda's argument that the Buddha admitted to performing bodhisattva austerities is negated by Chapter 16 of the sūtra, @ verse 0176c03:

爾時世尊知諸菩薩三請不止,而告之言:
At that time the Bhagavān discerned the myriad bodhisattvāḥ's thrice-asking incessantly (i.e. 'saw that they had asked three times'), therefore spoke to them saying:

「汝等諦聽,如來祕密神通之力。
"You all listen carefully, to the Tathāgata's mysterious hidden abhijñāyāḥ ("direct-knowing's") power.

一切世間天、人及阿修羅,皆謂:
All the world's divisions[,] devāḥ, humans and asurāḥ, all speak:

『今釋迦牟尼佛,出釋氏宮,去伽耶城不遠,坐於道場,得阿耨多羅三藐三菩提。』
"Presently this is Śākyamuni Buddha, he goes out from the Śakya clan's castle, goes to Bōdh Gayā not distant from there, sits in the bodhimaṇḍa ('throne of awakening'), attains anuttarasamyaksaṃbodhi ('nothing-higher-complete-perfect-awakening')."

然,善男子!我實成佛已來無量無邊百千萬億那由他劫。
Thus, kulaputrāḥ ('noble sons')! I truly completed Buddhahood since without measure without boundary one hundred trillion nayuta ('myriad') kalpāni ('aeons') ago.

譬如五百千萬億那由他阿僧祇三千大千世界,
Example thus: five hundred trillion nayuta asaṃkhyeya ('ten to the power of one hundred forty') trisāhasramahāsāhasralokadhātavaḥ ('trichiliocosms', or 'three thousandfold world systems')

假使有人末為微塵,
Pretend as if any person were to in the end render them [the world-systems] atomized,

過於東方五百千萬億那由他阿僧祇國乃下一塵,
were to move eastward five hundred trillion nayuta asaṃkhyeya kingdoms thereupon dropping one speck of the atoms,

如是東行,盡是微塵。
were to thus eastward continue dropping, until all those atoms were dropped.


諸善男子!於意云何?
Myriad kulaputrāḥ! To this idea what think you?

是諸世界,可得思惟校計知其數不?」
These myriad lokadhātavaḥ ('worlds'), can there be a thought or method to calculate to know this number, no?"

彌勒菩薩等俱白佛言:
Maitreya Bodhisattva and the assembly altogether spoke to the Buddha saying:

「世尊!是諸世界,無量無邊,非算數所知,亦非心力所及;
"Bhavagān! These myriad lokadhātavaḥ, without measure without boundary, there is no calculation known, also no mental power to reach [that calculation]:

一切聲聞、辟支佛,以無漏智,不能思惟知其限數;
All śrāvakāḥ, pratyekabuddhāḥ, according to wisdom with lack of outflows, cannot cognize to know that final number;

我等住阿惟越致地,於是事中亦所不達。
we here abide in non-retrograding bhūmayaḥ ('levels of attainment'), consequently upon this subject-matter there is no attainment among us.


世尊!如是諸世界,無量無邊。」
Bhagavān! Thus so these myriad lokadhātavaḥ, are without measure, without limit."


Jōsei Toda, when he proclaims this here:
This is obvious from a phrase from the Juryo Chapter of the Hokekyo that reads, “Once I also practiced the Bodhisattva austerities.” (Ga hon gyo bosatsu do). If he actually “practiced Bodhisattva austerities,” he must have done so under some other Buddha.

Yet, if he were the original Buddha, he would have made himself the object of worship. This is obviously irreconcilable.
He is taking the ultimate as provisional. He is misunderstanding this sūtra as arguing that the 實佛, the 'True Buddha', the ultimate, is provisional because he was awakened at a X time in Y place. Because of this, he needs a new ultimate, which he uses the Venerable Nichiren for.

He is mistaking the perspective of 一切世間天、人及阿修羅 ('all of the world's divisions, devas, humans and asuras') for the perspective of the 實 ('true/ultimate') which is enumerated by the Buddha immediately after his exposition of the 一切世間天、人及阿修羅 perspective in the same Juryo chapter that Jōsei Toda cites. The relations between the 一切世間天、人及阿修羅 perspective and the 實 perspective is key to making sense of the skillful means of the Buddha, and Jōsei Toda seems to be missing that.

The Venerable Nichiren "can" "be" the 實佛, the 'True Buddha', depending on the "can" and the "be", and the perspectives informing them, but exclusively so and uncritically so from all perspectives is an odd stretch, if that is indeed what Jōsei Toda's interpretation is implying.
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di:
yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia.

"All formations are inconstant," he said.
"All formations are stressful," he said.
"All phenomena are selfless," he said.
When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity.

(Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by JazzIsTvRicky » Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:23 am

Shakyamuni’s Buddhism has nothing to do with my Practice of Nichiren Daishonin’s Buddhism sip your argument is futile and irrelevant to me and My belief in what Toda Teaches.

I believe Toda and you do not :shrug:

To each his own! My faith is determined by my belief and understanding.

I understand My Friend that’s all that counts!
A فوتاري أوف ذي غوهونزون أوف نام ميوهو رينج كيو

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by Caoimhghín » Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:47 am

JazzIsTvRicky wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:23 am
Shakyamuni’s Buddhism has nothing to do with my Practice of Nichiren Daishonin’s Buddhism sip your argument is futile and irrelevant to me and My belief in what Toda Teaches.

I believe Toda and you do not :shrug:

To each his own! My faith is determined by my belief and understanding.

I understand My Friend that’s all that counts!
But your friend is mistaken, as pointed out above, his belief in Ven Nichiren as 實佛 is based on Śākyamuni's Lotus Sūtra, based on a passage that he is misinterpreting. This means that he is incorrect also in his notion that 南無妙法蓮華經 is not the Lotus Sūtra, and when he states that they were taught by seperate Buddhas. All this from not reading further.
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di:
yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia.

"All formations are inconstant," he said.
"All formations are stressful," he said.
"All phenomena are selfless," he said.
When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity.

(Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by Queequeg » Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:50 am

Image
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by Queequeg » Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:08 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:47 am
All this from not reading further.
Pretty much.

Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by Minobu » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:51 am

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:27 pm
Straight forward:

From Lotus Sutra Chapter 11:


its roads laid out like a chessboard and bordered with golden cords; an
You caused me to enter one of those dark corners that drive you bonkers...lol

what translation did you use that explains that they played chess back when this Lotus Sutra was written .
i bet Manjushri was the one to best.
any takers on who won ..
Did Buddha leave His supernatural powers behind as to not take advantage????

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by Minobu » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:59 am

I don't know why, though very long in trying to comprehend , people do not get that the lenght of time explained in the Lotus Sutra is finite.
it has a beginning though unimaginably long.
The whole point, for me, is to see how long we have been around accumulating karma .
Also that even that lenght of ime is but a blink of the eye in how long this thing has been happening...
also there were other buddhas who could tell of the same amount of time before this amount of time...on and on and on..
Sakyamuni and His other two Kaya bodies are not the Primordial Myo ho Renge Kyo.
Sakyamune is dead...the body long gone...His other emanations probably are on other world systems needing the physical body.
His other dharma kaya body and sambhogakaya body exist. but were won. realized, acquired...so to speak.

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by illarraza » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:32 am

JazzIsTvRicky wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:23 am
Shakyamuni’s Buddhism has nothing to do with my Practice of Nichiren Daishonin’s Buddhism sip your argument is futile and irrelevant to me and My belief in what Toda Teaches.

I believe Toda and you do not :shrug:

To each his own! My faith is determined by my belief and understanding.

I understand My Friend that’s all that counts!
Nichiren teaches (as do most traditions) that Maitreya will be the next Buddha (see Gosho On Prayer). Contrary to what Toda, SGI, Nichiren Shoshu, and you teach, the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren teach a One (Original Eternal) Buddha Doctrine. That you follow the teachings of Toda rather than the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren is cause for regret.

This will be long, hoping to convince you of your folly.

"Shakyamuni is the only Buddha endowed with all three virtues" -- Nichiren

"Having thus undoubtedly regretted and reversed his previous teachings, he made clear his true intention, saying, “The World-Honored One has long expounded his doctrines and now must reveal the truth,” and “For long he remained silent regarding the essential, in no hurry to speak of it at once.” Thereupon Many Treasures Buddha sprang forth from beneath the earth and added his testimony that what Shakyamunihad said is true, and the Buddhas of the ten directions assembled in the eight directions5 and reached with their long broad tongues to the palace of the great heavenly king Brahmā in testament. All the beings of the two worlds and the eight groups, who were gathered at the twoplaces and the three assemblies, without a single exception witnessed this.

In light of the above sutra passages, setting aside evil people and non-Buddhists who do not believe in Buddhism, with regard to those who, though Buddhist believers, have devout faith in provisional teachings preached before the Lotus Sutra such as the Nembutsu, and devote themselves to reciting it ten, a hundred, a thousand, ten thousand, or as many as sixty thousand times a day without chantingNam-myoho-renge-kyo even once in the course of ten or twenty years, are they not like a person who, clinging to the transfer deed already nullified by his parent, refuses to accept its revised version? They may appear to others as well as to themselves to have faith in the Buddha’s teachings, but if we go by what the Buddha actually taught, they are unfilial people.

This is why the second volume of the Lotus Sutra states: “But now this threefold world is all my domain, and the living beings in it are all my children. Now this place is beset by many pains and trials. I am the only person who can rescue and protect others, but though I teach and instruct them, they do not believe or accept my teachings.”

This passage means that to us living beings the Thus Come One Shakyamuni is our parent, our teacher, and our sovereign. AlthoughAmida, Medicine Master, and other Buddhas are sovereigns to us living beings, they are neither parents nor teachers. Shakyamuni is the only Buddha endowed with all three virtues and to whom we owe a profound debt of gratitude. There are parents and parents, yet none of them can equal Shakyamuni Buddha. There are all manner of teachers and sovereigns, but none as admirable as he is. Could those who disobey the teaching of this parent, teacher, and sovereign possibly not be abandoned by the heavenly gods and the earthly deities? They are the most unfilial of all children. It is for this reason that the Buddha said, “Though I teach and instruct them, they do not believe or accept my teachings.” Even if they follow the sutras preached before the Lotus and practice them for a hundred, a thousand, ten thousand, or a million kalpas, if they do not believe in the Lotus Sutra and chant Nam-myoho-renge-kyo even once, they will be unfilial. They will therefore be abandoned by the sacred ones of the three existences and the ten directions, and hated by both the heavenly gods and the earthly deities. (This is the first of the five guides for propagation.) -- Encouragement to a Sick Person

"And on another occasion the little retreat where I was living, where I had enshrined a statue of Shakyamuni Buddha as the object of devotion, and where I stored the texts of the various sutras, was attacked and destroyed, and the statue of the Buddha and sutra texts were not only trampled upon, but thrown into the mud and filth. And a scroll of the Lotus Sutra, which I had placed in the breast of my robe, was snatched forth and I was mercilessly beaten over the head with it. These heinous crimes were carried out not because of any ancient enmity harbored against me or because of any offense I had recently committed, but solely because I worked to propagate the teachings of the Lotus Sutra."

"Shakyamuni Buddha, our father and mother, who is endowed with the three virtues of sovereign, teacher and parent, is the very one who encourages us, the people driven out by all other Buddha, saying, "I alone can save them." The debt of gratitude we owe him is deeper than the ocean, weightier than the earth, vaster than the sky. Though we were to pluck out our two eyes and place them before him as an offering until there were more eyes there than stars in the sky, though we were to strip off our skins and spread them out by the hundreds of thousands of ten thousands until they blanketed the ceiling of heaven, though we were to give him our tears as offerings of water and present him with flowers for the space of a hundred billion kalpas, though we were to offer him our flesh and blood for innumerable kalpas, until our flesh piled up like mountains and our blood overflowed like vast seas, we could never repay a fraction of the debt we owe to this Buddha! (MW vol. 4, The Learned Doctor Shan-wu-wei)

"However, later seeking and entering the deep cave, you see a single hermitage. The voices of the reading and reciting of the Hokekyo echo against blue heaven and the words of discussing the doctrine of the One Vehicle are heard in the midst of the mountains. Informing [them, of your presence and requesting] admittance, you enter the chamber, place your mother's bones before the Master of Teachings Lord Shakya, cast your five limbs to the ground, press your palms together, and opening your two eyes, look up to the Holy Face: joy overflows your body and the pain of your heart suddenly ceases." (On Forgetting Ones Copy Of The Lotus Sutra, NOPPA Translation)

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2017/09/t ... ms-of.html

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2017/08/s ... their.html

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2017/06/n ... -true.html

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2017/02/n ... uddha.html

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2017/10/s ... en-on.html

"In the “Life Span” chapter of the Lotus Sutra, the Buddha says, “Sometimes I speak of myself, sometimes of others.” The Buddha Good Virtue of the eastern region, the Thus Come One Mahāvairochana of the center, the Buddhas of the ten directions, the seven Buddhas of the past, the Buddhas of the three existences, Bodhisattva Superior Practices and the other bodhisattvas, Manjushrī, Shāriputra and the others, the great heavenly king Brahmā, the devil king of the sixth heaven, the heavenly king Shakra Devānām Indra, the sun god, the moon god, the morning star god, the seven stars of the Big Dipper, the twenty-eight constellations, the five planets, the seven stars, the countless eighty-four thousand other stars, the asura kings, the heavenly gods, earthly gods, gods of the mountains, gods of the seas, household gods, village gods, and the rulers of all the various countries of the world—not one of these is other than [a provisional manifestation of] Shakyamuni Buddha, the lord of teachings! The Sun Goddess, Great Bodhisattva Hachiman—both these in their original form are Shakyamuni Buddha, the lord of teachings.

"Shakyamuni Buddha is like the one moon in the sky, and the various other Buddhas, bodhisattvas, and beings are like the reflections floating on ten thousand different bodies of water. Thus a person who fashions a single image of Shakyamuni Buddha is in effect making images of all the Buddhas of the worlds in the ten directions." [Concerning The Buddha Statue Fashioned by Nichigen-nyo]

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2017/01/t ... icult.html

"T’ien-t’ai asserted, 'That which has a profound doctrine and accords with the sutras is to be written down and made available. But put no faith in anything that in word or meaning fails to do so. 'He also said, 'All assertions that lack scriptural proof are to be branded as false.' How would you interpret such statements?" -- Questions and Answers about Embracing the Lotus Sutra

Toda's teachings lack scriptural proof.

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2016/05/w ... e-kyo.html

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2017/04/t ... ntary.html (long save for a rainy day)

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2016/05/s ... y-and.html

Nichiren says "Shakyamuni Buddha is the Original Teacher, not he himself as instructed by SGI, NST, Toda, and JazzRicky:

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2016/04/t ... acher.html

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2016/04/n ... about.html

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2016/04/i ... spect.html

"From the body of the single Buddha Sakyamuni, all Buddhas and bodhisattvas are produced.":

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2017/09/f ... amuni.html

Clear proof that Shakyamuni is the father and Nichiren is the messenger:

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2016/01/c ... ha-is.html

"With full understanding of Shakyamuni’s teachings, the four great voice-hearers said, “This cluster of unsurpassed jewels has come to us unsought.” They represent the world of the voice-hearer that is within ourselves. The Buddha stated, “At the start I took a vow, hoping to make all persons equal to me, without any distinction between us, and what I long ago hoped for has now been fulfilled. I have converted all living beings and caused them all to enter the Buddha way.” Shakyamuni Buddha, who has attained perfect enlightenment, is our own flesh and blood. His practices and the resulting virtues are our bones and marrow. The “Treasure Tower” chapter of the Lotus Sutra says, “He who is capable of guarding the Law of this sutra will thereby have offered alms to me and to Many Treasures. . . . One who guards this sutra will also have offered alms to the emanation Buddhas who have come here adorning and making brilliant all the various worlds.” Shakyamuni, Many Treasures, and the Buddhas of the ten directions represent the world of Buddhahood within ourselves. By searching them out within us, we can receive the benefits of all these Buddhas. This is what is meant by the following passage: “If one listens to them [the preachers of the Law] for even a moment, one will immediately attain supreme perfect enlightenment.” The “Life Span” chapter reads, “It has been immeasurable, boundless hundreds, thousands, ten thousands, millions of nayutas of kalpas since I in fact attained Buddhahood.” Shakyamuni Buddha within our lives is the eternal Buddha since time without beginning, who obtained the three bodies more than numberless major world system dust particle kalpas ago. The “Life Span” chapter states, “Originally I practiced the bodhisattva way, and the life span that I acquired then has yet to come to an end but will last twice the number of years that have already passed.” He was speaking of the world of the bodhisattva within ourselves. The bodhisattvas, as numerous as the dust particles of a thousand worlds, who emerged from beneath the earth, are the followers of the Shakyamuni Buddha present in our lives. They follow the Buddha just as T’ai-kung Wang and Tan, the Duke of Chou, served as ministers to King Wu of the Chou dynasty and later assisted his son and successor, the infant King Ch’eng; or just as the Chief MinisterTakenouchi supported Empress Jingū and later her grandson Crown Prince Nintoku as a highly valued minister. The bodhisattvas Superior Practices, Boundless Practices, Pure Practices, and Firmly Established Practices represent the world of the bodhisattva within ourselves. The Great Teacher Miao-lo says: “You should understand that one’s life and its environment at a single moment encompass the three thousand realms. Therefore, when one attains the Buddha way, one puts oneself in accord with this fundamental principle, and one’s body and mind at a single moment pervade the entire realm of phenomena.” (True Object of Worship)

Even Ikeda has come around:

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2017/08/t ... ssing.html

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2017/07/s ... lotus.html

"Since Sakyamuni Buddha is eternal and all other Buddhas in the universe are his manifestations, then those great bodhisattvas converted by manifested Buddhas are also disciples of Lord Sakyamuni Buddha. If the "Life Span of the Buddha" chapter had not been expounded, it would be like the sky without the sun and moon, a country without a king, mountains and rivers without gems, or a man without a soul. nevertheless, seemingly knowledgeable men of such provisional schools of Buddhism as Ch'eng-kuan of the Hua-yen, Chia-hsiang of the San-lun, Tz'u-en of the Fa-hsiang, and Kobo of the shingon tried to extoltheir own canons by stating: "The Lord of the Flower Garland Sutra represents the reward-body (hojin) of the Buddha wheras that of the Lotus Sutra the accomodative body (ojin);" or "the Buddha in the sixteenth chapter of the Lotus is an Illusion; it is the great Sun Buddha who is enlightened." clouds cover the moon and slanderers hide wise men. When people slander, ordinary yellow rocks appear to be of gold and slanderers seem to be wise. Scholars in this age of decay, blinded by slanderous words, do not see the value of a gold in the "Lifespan of the Buddha" chapter. Even among men of the Tendai school some are fooled into taking a yellow rock for gold. They should know that if Sakyamuni had not been the Eternal Buddha, there could not have been so many who received GUIDANCE from Him. " -- Kaimoku Sho p. 27 Translated by Kyotsu Hori, 1992

"Now , when the Eternal Buddha was revealed in the essential section of the Lotus Sutra, this world of endurance (Saha-world) became the Eternal Pure Land, indestructible even by the three calamities of conflagration, flooding, and strong winds, which are said to destroy the world. It transcends the four periods of cosmic change: the kalpa of construction, continuance, destruction and emptiness. Sakyamuni Buddha, the Lord-preacher of this pure land, has never died in the past, nor will He be born in the future. He exists forever throughout the past present and future. All those who receive His GUIDANCE are one with this Eternal Buddha." -- Kanjin Honzon-Sho (NOPPA) page 94

In conclusion:

Nichiren writes in the Opening of the Eyes:

“Thus, in the various sutras other than the Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni does not assemble those Buddhas who carry out different austerities and practices and who possess the three bodies nor does he identify them as emanations of himself. Only in the Hoto chapter of the Lotus Sutra does he do so. This chapter then, is intended as an introduction to the Juryo chapter that follows later. Shakyamuni Buddha who was believed to have attained enlightenment for the first time only some forty and more years previously, calls together Buddhas who had become enlightened as long ago as one or even ten kalpas in the past, and declares that they are emanations of himself. This is a far cry indeed from the Buddha’s usual preaching on the equality of all Buddhas [in their Dharma bodies], and in fact a cause of great astonishment. If Shakyamuni had attained enlightenment for the first time only some forty years earlier, there could hardly have been so many beings in the ten directions who had received his instruction. And even if he was privileged to possess emanations, there would have been no benefit in his showing them to his listeners. T’ien-t’ai, describing what went on in the astonished minds of the assembly, stated: “It was evident to them that Shakyamuni Buddha possessed numerous emanations. Therefore, they understood that he must have attained enlightenment in the far distant past.”

I have collected 98 additional passages of proof but it is difficult to save those who are deaf to the teachings of this Sutra..

Question: What is the Meaning of Original Buddha or Original Teacher?

Answer: Original Teacher means that no matter how eminent, wise, or knowledgeable one may be, no matter how diligent one is in carrying out the Six Paramitas (Six Perfections), and no matter how long one practices the Six Paramitas, there is no way that one could come up with, let alone reveal, Myoho renge kyo independently of Shakyamuni Buddha. Shakyamuni Buddha, in the history of the universe, was the one unique individual capable of doing so. Nichiren realized this, taught this, and reverenced Shakyamuni Buddha for His astronomical feat of autonomous self-practice. That is why He, rather than any other individual, is revered as the person of the Gohonzon (Ninpo-Ika or Oneness of Person and Law).

We owe our very Enlightenment to this Buddha and this Buddha alone. The arrogance of those who misconstrue Shakyamuni Buddha’s and Nichiren Daishonin’s words for their own aggrandizement is cause to fall into the Lower Worlds and to remain there for a very long time. How can one follow someone who is so blind to the manifest reality that someone had to give them the Five Characters that they pay homage to? Daisaku Ikeda didn’t come up with the formula Myoho renge kyo. The High Priest didn’t come up with this formula, nor did you, Patrick. Even Nichiren Daishonin didn’t realize and expound the Lotus Sutra in the infinite past. It was Shakyamuni Buddha who taught Nichiren Daishonin and the other Bodhisattvas of the Earth the Lotus Sutra in the remote past. It was Eternal Shakyamuni Buddha who planted the seed of Myoho renge kyo in our Buddha-nature, the seed that, when watered with a correct faith and practice, grows into the magnificent tree of the Supreme Enlightenment of Myoho.

Nichiren teaches:

“Answer: ‘One: Japan and so on to the whole of Jambudvipa should uniformly take the Master of teachings Lord Shakya of the Original Doctrine as the Object of Worship.” — Repaying Debts of Gratitude

This is the Great Secret Law of the Object of Worship. The Great Secret Law of the Invocation is Namu Myoho renge kyo. The Third Secret Law is that of the High Sanctuary which I will leave for the moment. A chair can not stand on two legs. SGI arbitrarily throws out the Great Secret Law of the Object of Worship of Shakyamuni of the Juryo Chapter of the Lotus Sutra because it grates on their sensibilities. You should admit that Ikeda has created a new religion.

That is why we are great. We preserve Nichiren Daishonin’s religion for those who wish to practice his way and we could give a rats tushy what you or anyone else thinks. Change the teachings and we will attack you with everything at our disposal. Start your own religion as JazzRicky and see how many people follow you. He (you) don't even have one ten millionth the charisma of Ikeda nor one ten trillion the experience of the Daishonin, yet you would undermine the Great Man and his teachings. Shame on you.

Unity for the sake of unity, at what expense? Certainly not at the expense of the purity and preservation of the teachings. In the future, many will recognize how ours is the correct teachings of Nichiren Lotus Sutra Buddhism. They will be proven to perfectly fit the capacity of the people. One thousand out of one thousand people will come to experience the four virtues of eternity, happiness, true self, and purity. His and Ikeda’s teachings will fall by the wayside because it is not based on the Enlightenment of the Buddha nor Nichiren but merely on their self satisfied understanding. You think many haven’t heard the correct teachings through us? We are coming up on one million views on our blog. Whether readily embracing the Daimoku through our efforts or despising the Daimoku for them, they form a relationship to the Sutra and will attain Buddhahood.
Last edited by illarraza on Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Minobu
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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by Minobu » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:04 am

illarraza wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:32 am
JazzIsTvRicky wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:23 am
Shakyamuni’s Buddhism has nothing to do with my Practice of Nichiren Daishonin’s Buddhism sip your argument is futile and irrelevant to me and My belief in what Toda Teaches.

I believe Toda and you do not :shrug:

To each his own! My faith is determined by my belief and understanding.

I understand My Friend that’s all that counts!
Nichiren teaches (as do most traditions) that Maitreya will be the next Buddha (see Gosho On Prayer). Contrary to what Toda, SGI, Nichiren Shoshu, and you teach, the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren teach a One (Original Eternal) Buddha Doctrine. That you follow the teachings of Toda rather than the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren is cause for regret.

This will be long, hoping to convince you of your folly.

"Shakyamuni is the only Buddha endowed with all three virtues" -- Nichiren

"Having thus undoubtedly regretted and reversed his previous teachings, he made clear his true intention, saying, “The World-Honored One has long expounded his doctrines and now must reveal the truth,” and “For long he remained silent regarding the essential, in no hurry to speak of it at once.” Thereupon Many Treasures Buddha sprang forth from beneath the earth and added his testimony that what Shakyamunihad said is true, and the Buddhas of the ten directions assembled in the eight directions5 and reached with their long broad tongues to the palace of the great heavenly king Brahmā in testament. All the beings of the two worlds and the eight groups, who were gathered at the twoplaces and the three assemblies, without a single exception witnessed this.

In light of the above sutra passages, setting aside evil people and non-Buddhists who do not believe in Buddhism, with regard to those who, though Buddhist believers, have devout faith in provisional teachings preached before the Lotus Sutra such as the Nembutsu, and devote themselves to reciting it ten, a hundred, a thousand, ten thousand, or as many as sixty thousand times a day without chantingNam-myoho-renge-kyo even once in the course of ten or twenty years, are they not like a person who, clinging to the transfer deed already nullified by his parent, refuses to accept its revised version? They may appear to others as well as to themselves to have faith in the Buddha’s teachings, but if we go by what the Buddha actually taught, they are unfilial people.

This is why the second volume of the Lotus Sutra states: “But now this threefold world is all my domain, and the living beings in it are all my children. Now this place is beset by many pains and trials. I am the only person who can rescue and protect others, but though I teach and instruct them, they do not believe or accept my teachings.”

This passage means that to us living beings the Thus Come One Shakyamuni is our parent, our teacher, and our sovereign. AlthoughAmida, Medicine Master, and other Buddhas are sovereigns to us living beings, they are neither parents nor teachers. Shakyamuni is the only Buddha endowed with all three virtues and to whom we owe a profound debt of gratitude. There are parents and parents, yet none of them can equal Shakyamuni Buddha. There are all manner of teachers and sovereigns, but none as admirable as he is. Could those who disobey the teaching of this parent, teacher, and sovereign possibly not be abandoned by the heavenly gods and the earthly deities? They are the most unfilial of all children. It is for this reason that the Buddha said, “Though I teach and instruct them, they do not believe or accept my teachings.” Even if they follow the sutras preached before the Lotus and practice them for a hundred, a thousand, ten thousand, or a million kalpas, if they do not believe in the Lotus Sutra and chant Nam-myoho-renge-kyo even once, they will be unfilial. They will therefore be abandoned by the sacred ones of the three existences and the ten directions, and hated by both the heavenly gods and the earthly deities. (This is the first of the five guides for propagation.) -- Encouragement to a Sick Person

"And on another occasion the little retreat where I was living, where I had enshrined a statue of Shakyamuni Buddha as the object of devotion, and where I stored the texts of the various sutras, was attacked and destroyed, and the statue of the Buddha and sutra texts were not only trampled upon, but thrown into the mud and filth. And a scroll of the Lotus Sutra, which I had placed in the breast of my robe, was snatched forth and I was mercilessly beaten over the head with it. These heinous crimes were carried out not because of any ancient enmity harbored against me or because of any offense I had recently committed, but solely because I worked to propagate the teachings of the Lotus Sutra."

"Shakyamuni Buddha, our father and mother, who is endowed with the three virtues of sovereign, teacher and parent, is the very one who encourages us, the people driven out by all other Buddha, saying, "I alone can save them." The debt of gratitude we owe him is deeper than the ocean, weightier than the earth, vaster than the sky. Though we were to pluck out our two eyes and place them before him as an offering until there were more eyes there than stars in the sky, though we were to strip off our skins and spread them out by the hundreds of thousands of ten thousands until they blanketed the ceiling of heaven, though we were to give him our tears as offerings of water and present him with flowers for the space of a hundred billion kalpas, though we were to offer him our flesh and blood for innumerable kalpas, until our flesh piled up like mountains and our blood overflowed like vast seas, we could never repay a fraction of the debt we owe to this Buddha! (MW vol. 4, The Learned Doctor Shan-wu-wei)

"However, later seeking and entering the deep cave, you see a single hermitage. The voices of the reading and reciting of the Hokekyo echo against blue heaven and the words of discussing the doctrine of the One Vehicle are heard in the midst of the mountains. Informing [them, of your presence and requesting] admittance, you enter the chamber, place your mother's bones before the Master of Teachings Lord Shakya, cast your five limbs to the ground, press your palms together, and opening your two eyes, look up to the Holy Face: joy overflows your body and the pain of your heart suddenly ceases." (On Forgetting Ones Copy Of The Lotus Sutra, NOPPA Translation)

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2017/09/t ... ms-of.html

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2017/08/s ... their.html

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2017/06/n ... s-true.htm

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2017/02/n ... uddha.html

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2017/10/s ... en-on.html

"In the “Life Span” chapter of the Lotus Sutra, the Buddha says, “Sometimes I speak of myself, sometimes of others.” The Buddha Good Virtue of the eastern region, the Thus Come One Mahāvairochana of the center, the Buddhas of the ten directions, the seven Buddhas of the past, the Buddhas of the three existences, Bodhisattva Superior Practices and the other bodhisattvas, Manjushrī, Shāriputra and the others, the great heavenly king Brahmā, the devil king of the sixth heaven, the heavenly king Shakra Devānām Indra, the sun god, the moon god, the morning star god, the seven stars of the Big Dipper, the twenty-eight constellations, the five planets, the seven stars, the countless eighty-four thousand other stars, the asura kings, the heavenly gods, earthly gods, gods of the mountains, gods of the seas, household gods, village gods, and the rulers of all the various countries of the world—not one of these is other than [a provisional manifestation of] Shakyamuni Buddha, the lord of teachings! The Sun Goddess, Great Bodhisattva Hachiman—both these in their original form are Shakyamuni Buddha, the lord of teachings.

"Shakyamuni Buddha is like the one moon in the sky, and the various other Buddhas, bodhisattvas, and beings are like the reflections floating on ten thousand different bodies of water. Thus a person who fashions a single image of Shakyamuni Buddha is in effect making images of all the Buddhas of the worlds in the ten directions." [Concerning The Buddha Statue Fashioned by Nichigen-nyo]

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2017/01/t ... icult.html

"T’ien-t’ai asserted, 'That which has a profound doctrine and accords with the sutras is to be written down and made available. But put no faith in anything that in word or meaning fails to do so. 'He also said, 'All assertions that lack scriptural proof are to be branded as false.' How would you interpret such statements?" -- Questions and Answers about Embracing the Lotus Sutra

Toda's teachings lack scriptural proof.

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2016/05/w ... e-kyo.html

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2017/04/t ... ntary.html (long save for a rainy day)

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2016/05/s ... y-and.html

Nichiren says "Shakyamuni Buddha is the Original Teacher, not he himself as instructed by SGI, NST, Toda, and JazzRicky:

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2016/04/t ... acher.html

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2016/04/n ... about.html

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2016/04/i ... spect.html

"From the body of the single Buddha Sakyamuni, all Buddhas and bodhisattvas are produced.":

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2017/09/f ... amuni.html

Clear proof that Shakyamuni is the father and Nichiren is the messenger:

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2016/01/c ... ha-is.html

"With full understanding of Shakyamuni’s teachings, the four great voice-hearers said, “This cluster of unsurpassed jewels has come to us unsought.” They represent the world of the voice-hearer that is within ourselves. The Buddha stated, “At the start I took a vow, hoping to make all persons equal to me, without any distinction between us, and what I long ago hoped for has now been fulfilled. I have converted all living beings and caused them all to enter the Buddha way.” Shakyamuni Buddha, who has attained perfect enlightenment, is our own flesh and blood. His practices and the resulting virtues are our bones and marrow. The “Treasure Tower” chapter of the Lotus Sutra says, “He who is capable of guarding the Law of this sutra will thereby have offered alms to me and to Many Treasures. . . . One who guards this sutra will also have offered alms to the emanation Buddhas who have come here adorning and making brilliant all the various worlds.” Shakyamuni, Many Treasures, and the Buddhas of the ten directions represent the world of Buddhahood within ourselves. By searching them out within us, we can receive the benefits of all these Buddhas. This is what is meant by the following passage: “If one listens to them [the preachers of the Law] for even a moment, one will immediately attain supreme perfect enlightenment.” The “Life Span” chapter reads, “It has been immeasurable, boundless hundreds, thousands, ten thousands, millions of nayutas of kalpas since I in fact attained Buddhahood.” Shakyamuni Buddha within our lives is the eternal Buddha since time without beginning, who obtained the three bodies more than numberless major world system dust particle kalpas ago. The “Life Span” chapter states, “Originally I practiced the bodhisattva way, and the life span that I acquired then has yet to come to an end but will last twice the number of years that have already passed.” He was speaking of the world of the bodhisattva within ourselves. The bodhisattvas, as numerous as the dust particles of a thousand worlds, who emerged from beneath the earth, are the followers of the Shakyamuni Buddha present in our lives. They follow the Buddha just as T’ai-kung Wang and Tan, the Duke of Chou, served as ministers to King Wu of the Chou dynasty and later assisted his son and successor, the infant King Ch’eng; or just as the Chief MinisterTakenouchi supported Empress Jingū and later her grandson Crown Prince Nintoku as a highly valued minister. The bodhisattvas Superior Practices, Boundless Practices, Pure Practices, and Firmly Established Practices represent the world of the bodhisattva within ourselves. The Great Teacher Miao-lo says: “You should understand that one’s life and its environment at a single moment encompass the three thousand realms. Therefore, when one attains the Buddha way, one puts oneself in accord with this fundamental principle, and one’s body and mind at a single moment pervade the entire realm of phenomena.” (True Object of Worship)

Even Ikeda has come around:

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2017/08/t ... ssing.html

http://markrogow.blogspot.com/2017/07/s ... lotus.html

"Since Sakyamuni Buddha is eternal and all other Buddhas in the universe are his manifestations, then those great bodhisattvas converted by manifested Buddhas are also disciples of Lord Sakyamuni Buddha. If the "Life Span of the Buddha" chapter had not been expounded, it would be like the sky without the sun and moon, a country without a king, mountains and rivers without gems, or a man without a soul. nevertheless, seemingly knowledgeable men of such provisional schools of Buddhism as Ch'eng-kuan of the Hua-yen, Chia-hsiang of the San-lun, Tz'u-en of the Fa-hsiang, and Kobo of the shingon tried to extoltheir own canons by stating: "The Lord of the Flower Garland Sutra represents the reward-body (hojin) of the Buddha wheras that of the Lotus Sutra the accomodative body (ojin);" or "the Buddha in the sixteenth chapter of the Lotus is an Illusion; it is the great Sun Buddha who is enlightened." clouds cover the moon and slanderers hide wise men. When people slander, ordinary yellow rocks appear to be of gold and slanderers seem to be wise. Scholars in this age of decay, blinded by slanderous words, do not see the value of a gold in the "Lifespan of the Buddha" chapter. Even among men of the Tendai school some are fooled into taking a yellow rock for gold. They should know that if Sakyamuni had not been the Eternal Buddha, there could not have been so many who received GUIDANCE from Him. " -- Kaimoku Sho p. 27 Translated by Kyotsu Hori, 1992

"Now , when the Eternal Buddha was revealed in the essential section of the Lotus Sutra, this world of endurance (Saha-world) became the Eternal Pure Land, indestructible even by the three calamities of conflagration, flooding, and strong winds, which are said to destroy the world. It transcends the four periods of cosmic change: the kalpa of construction, continuance, destruction and emptiness. Sakyamuni Buddha, the Lord-preacher of this pure land, has never died in the past, nor will He be born in the future. He exists forever throughout the past present and future. All those who receive His GUIDANCE are one with this Eternal Buddha." -- Kanjin Honzon-Sho (NOPPA) page 94

In conclusion:

Nichiren writes in the Opening of the Eyes:

“Thus, in the various sutras other than the Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni does not assemble those Buddhas who carry out different austerities and practices and who possess the three bodies nor does he identify them as emanations of himself. Only in the Hoto chapter of the Lotus Sutra does he do so. This chapter then, is intended as an introduction to the Juryo chapter that follows later. Shakyamuni Buddha who was believed to have attained enlightenment for the first time only some forty and more years previously, calls together Buddhas who had become enlightened as long ago as one or even ten kalpas in the past, and declares that they are emanations of himself. This is a far cry indeed from the Buddha’s usual preaching on the equality of all Buddhas [in their Dharma bodies], and in fact a cause of great astonishment. If Shakyamuni had attained enlightenment for the first time only some forty years earlier, there could hardly have been so many beings in the ten directions who had received his instruction. And even if he was privileged to possess emanations, there would have been no benefit in his showing them to his listeners. T’ien-t’ai, describing what went on in the astonished minds of the assembly, stated: “It was evident to them that Shakyamuni Buddha possessed numerous emanations. Therefore, they understood that he must have attained enlightenment in the far distant past.”

I have collected 98 additional passages of proof but it is difficult to save those who are deaf to the teachings of this Sutra..

Question: What is the Meaning of Original Buddha or Original Teacher?

Answer: Original Teacher means that no matter how eminent, wise, or knowledgeable one may be, no matter how diligent one is in carrying out the Six Paramitas (Six Perfections), and no matter how long one practices the Six Paramitas, there is no way that one could come up with, let alone reveal, Myoho renge kyo independently of Shakyamuni Buddha. Shakyamuni Buddha, in the history of the universe, was the one unique individual capable of doing so. Nichiren realized this, taught this, and reverenced Shakyamuni Buddha for His astronomical feat of autonomous self-practice. That is why He, rather than any other individual, is revered as the person of the Gohonzon (Ninpo-Ika or Oneness of Person and Law).

We owe our very Enlightenment to this Buddha and this Buddha alone. The arrogance of those who misconstrue Shakyamuni Buddha’s and Nichiren Daishonin’s words for their own aggrandizement is cause to fall into the Lower Worlds and to remain there for a very long time. How can one follow someone who is so blind to the manifest reality that someone had to give them the Five Characters that they pay homage to? Daisaku Ikeda didn’t come up with the formula Myoho renge kyo. The High Priest didn’t come up with this formula, nor did you, Patrick. Even Nichiren Daishonin didn’t realize and expound the Lotus Sutra in the infinite past. It was Shakyamuni Buddha who taught Nichiren Daishonin and the other Bodhisattvas of the Earth the Lotus Sutra in the remote past. It was Eternal Shakyamuni Buddha who planted the seed of Myoho renge kyo in our Buddha-nature, the seed that, when watered with a correct faith and practice, grows into the magnificent tree of the Supreme Enlightenment of Myoho.

Nichiren teaches:

“Answer: ‘One: Japan and so on to the whole of Jambudvipa should uniformly take the Master of teachings Lord Shakya of the Original Doctrine as the Object of Worship.” — Repaying Debts of Gratitude

This is the Great Secret Law of the Object of Worship. The Great Secret Law of the Invocation is Namu Myoho renge kyo. The Third Secret Law is that of the High Sanctuary which I will leave for the moment. A chair can not stand on two legs. SGI arbitrarily throws out the Great Secret Law of the Object of Worship of Shakyamuni of the Juryo Chapter of the Lotus Sutra because it grates on their sensibilities. You should admit that Ikeda has created a new religion.

That is why we are great. We preserve Nichiren Daishonin’s religion for those who wish to practice his way and we could give a rats tushy what you or anyone else thinks. Change the teachings and we will attack you with everything at our disposal. Start your own religion as JazzRicky and see how many people follow you. He (you) don't even have one ten millionth the charisma of Ikeda nor one ten trillion the experience of the Daishonin, yet you would undermine the Great Man and his teachings. Shame on you.

Unity for the sake of unity, at what expense? Certainly not at the expense of the purity and preservation of the teachings. In the future, many will recognize how ours is the correct teachings of Nichiren Lotus Sutra Buddhism. They will be proven to perfectly fit the capacity of the people. One thousand out of one thousand people will come to experience the four virtues of eternity, happiness, true self, and purity. His and Ikeda’s teachings will fall by the wayside because it is not based on the Enlightenment of the Buddha nor Nichiren but merely on their self satisfied understanding. You think many haven’t heard the correct teachings through us? We are coming up on one million views on our blog. Whether readily embracing the Daimoku through our efforts or despising the Daimoku for them, they form a relationship to the Sutra and will attain Buddhahood.
:good:
read it all...very helpful in making it clear
thanks

still not totally there...but i know where there is

illarraza
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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by illarraza » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:23 am

That makes me happy Minobu.

Mark

illarraza
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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by illarraza » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:35 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:41 am
JazzIsTvRicky wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:01 am
Josei Toda

“Another striking difference is found in the method of’ teaching. Shakyamuni led his disciples to the Hokekyo with provisional teachings but the Daishonin declared the law of Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo once for all. Buddhist teachings to guide his people.  

Shakyamuni was the first Buddha in recorded history, but from the viewpoint of eternal life clarified in Buddhism, Nichiren Daishonin is the original Buddha who awakened all other Buddhas to the truth of ‘life’ and the universe. The relationship between the two is comparable to that of the moon shining in the nocturnal sky and its reflection on the surface of a pond.  This is obvious from a phrase from the Juryo Chapter of the Hokekyo that reads, “Once I also practiced the Bodhisattva austerities.” (Ga hon gyo bosatsu do). If he actually “practiced Bodhisattva austerities,” he must have done so under some other Buddha.

Yet, if he were the original Buddha, he would have made himself the object of worship. This is obviously irreconcilable. The truth is that he practiced Buddhism under the True Buddha who emerged in Mappo as Nichiren Daishonin.  

In other words, Nichiren Daishonin is the ‘life’ of Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo while Shakyamuni attained enlightenment by worshipping the Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo.

[...]
It seems that Jōsei Toda has arrived at the conclusion that Śākyamuni Buddha did not teach the Lotus Sūtra, and that Śākyamuni Buddha does not employ skillful means, such as manifesting the practicing of bodhisattva austerities. This has lead him to conclude that Śākyamuni Buddha is not Śākyamuni Buddha, as Śākyamuni Buddha cannot have employed skillful means to manifest the practicing of bodhisattva austerities, and therefore, since Śākyamuni Buddha is not Śākyamuni Buddha, and did not preach the Lotus Sūtra, that it must have been the Venerable Nichiren who is actually Śākyamuni Buddha. Very convoluted. He has concluded that the sūtra itself is incoherent due to his misunderstanding.

Jōsei Toda's argument that the Buddha admitted to performing bodhisattva austerities is negated by Chapter 16 of the sūtra, @ verse 0176c03:

爾時世尊知諸菩薩三請不止,而告之言:
At that time the Bhagavān discerned the myriad bodhisattvāḥ's thrice-asking incessantly (i.e. 'saw that they had asked three times'), therefore spoke to them saying:

「汝等諦聽,如來祕密神通之力。
"You all listen carefully, to the Tathāgata's mysterious hidden abhijñāyāḥ ("direct-knowing's") power.

一切世間天、人及阿修羅,皆謂:
All the world's divisions[,] devāḥ, humans and asurāḥ, all speak:

『今釋迦牟尼佛,出釋氏宮,去伽耶城不遠,坐於道場,得阿耨多羅三藐三菩提。』
"Presently this is Śākyamuni Buddha, he goes out from the Śakya clan's castle, goes to Bōdh Gayā not distant from there, sits in the bodhimaṇḍa ('throne of awakening'), attains anuttarasamyaksaṃbodhi ('nothing-higher-complete-perfect-awakening')."

然,善男子!我實成佛已來無量無邊百千萬億那由他劫。
Thus, kulaputrāḥ ('noble sons')! I truly completed Buddhahood since without measure without boundary one hundred trillion nayuta ('myriad') kalpāni ('aeons') ago.

譬如五百千萬億那由他阿僧祇三千大千世界,
Example thus: five hundred trillion nayuta asaṃkhyeya ('ten to the power of one hundred forty') trisāhasramahāsāhasralokadhātavaḥ ('trichiliocosms', or 'three thousandfold world systems')

假使有人末為微塵,
Pretend as if any person were to in the end render them [the world-systems] atomized,

過於東方五百千萬億那由他阿僧祇國乃下一塵,
were to move eastward five hundred trillion nayuta asaṃkhyeya kingdoms thereupon dropping one speck of the atoms,

如是東行,盡是微塵。
were to thus eastward continue dropping, until all those atoms were dropped.


諸善男子!於意云何?
Myriad kulaputrāḥ! To this idea what think you?

是諸世界,可得思惟校計知其數不?」
These myriad lokadhātavaḥ ('worlds'), can there be a thought or method to calculate to know this number, no?"

彌勒菩薩等俱白佛言:
Maitreya Bodhisattva and the assembly altogether spoke to the Buddha saying:

「世尊!是諸世界,無量無邊,非算數所知,亦非心力所及;
"Bhavagān! These myriad lokadhātavaḥ, without measure without boundary, there is no calculation known, also no mental power to reach [that calculation]:

一切聲聞、辟支佛,以無漏智,不能思惟知其限數;
All śrāvakāḥ, pratyekabuddhāḥ, according to wisdom with lack of outflows, cannot cognize to know that final number;

我等住阿惟越致地,於是事中亦所不達。
we here abide in non-retrograding bhūmayaḥ ('levels of attainment'), consequently upon this subject-matter there is no attainment among us.


世尊!如是諸世界,無量無邊。」
Bhagavān! Thus so these myriad lokadhātavaḥ, are without measure, without limit."


Jōsei Toda, when he proclaims this here:
This is obvious from a phrase from the Juryo Chapter of the Hokekyo that reads, “Once I also practiced the Bodhisattva austerities.” (Ga hon gyo bosatsu do). If he actually “practiced Bodhisattva austerities,” he must have done so under some other Buddha.

Yet, if he were the original Buddha, he would have made himself the object of worship. This is obviously irreconcilable.
He is taking the ultimate as provisional. He is misunderstanding this sūtra as arguing that the 實佛, the 'True Buddha', the ultimate, is provisional because he was awakened at a X time in Y place. Because of this, he needs a new ultimate, which he uses the Venerable Nichiren for.

He is mistaking the perspective of 一切世間天、人及阿修羅 ('all of the world's divisions, devas, humans and asuras') for the perspective of the 實 ('true/ultimate') which is enumerated by the Buddha immediately after his exposition of the 一切世間天、人及阿修羅 perspective in the same Juryo chapter that Jōsei Toda cites. The relations between the 一切世間天、人及阿修羅 perspective and the 實 perspective is key to making sense of the skillful means of the Buddha, and Jōsei Toda seems to be missing that.

The Venerable Nichiren "can" "be" the 實佛, the 'True Buddha', depending on the "can" and the "be", and the perspectives informing them, but exclusively so and uncritically so from all perspectives is an odd stretch, if that is indeed what Jōsei Toda's interpretation is implying.
I too believe that SGI, Nichiren Shoshu, and JazzTVRicky confuse the Specific with the General. According to Nichiren:

"The Lotus Sutra states that Bodhisattva Superior Practices and the others will appear in the first five hundred years of the Latter Day of the Law to propagate the five characters, the embodiment of the two elements of reality and wisdom. The sutra makes this perfectly clear. Who could possibly dispute it? I, Nichiren, am neither Bodhisattva Superior Practices nor his envoy, but I precede them, spreading the five characters to prepare the way. Bodhisattva Superior Practices received the water of the wisdom of the Mystic Law from the Thus Come One Shakyamuni and causes it to flow into the wasteland of the people’s lives in the evil world p.747of the latter age. This is the function of wisdom. Shakyamuni Buddha transferred this teaching to Bodhisattva Superior Practices, and now Nichiren propagates it in Japan. With regard to the transfer of teachings, it is divided into two categories: general and specific. If you confuse the general with the specific even in the slightest, you will never be able to attain Buddhahood and will wander in suffering through endless transmigrations of births and deaths." -- The Essentials for Attaining Buddhahood

Mark

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by Queequeg » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:50 pm

Minobu wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:51 am
what translation did you use that explains that they played chess back when this Lotus Sutra was written .
BDK. Available here: http://www.bdk.or.jp/english/english_tr ... nload.html

Not sure if this is a gloss. Probably is. The description of pure lands being laid out on grids with straight lines is standard.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by Queequeg » Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:36 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:22 pm
DGA wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:40 pm
If so, what is the difference between a follower (disciple?) and an emanation? Are these two terms translating the same or different characters?
I just quoted the text. It speaks for itself. As for emanation/disciple, just a flourish. Not sure about the characters.
I looked through some of Nichiren's major writings. He does not refer to the Buddhas of other lands as his "disciples". He refers to them as 分身 funjin.

Comparing Kumarajiva against the sanskrit version Kern translated, 分身 is the translation of tathagata vigraha and nirmita.

See https://www.academia.edu/14864180/A_Glo ... o=download
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: What does it mean, "All other Buddhas are followers of Shakyamuni Buddha?

Post by Queequeg » Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:52 pm

Minobu wrote:
Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:59 am
I don't know why, though very long in trying to comprehend , people do not get that the lenght of time explained in the Lotus Sutra is finite.
it has a beginning though unimaginably long.
The whole point, for me, is to see how long we have been around accumulating karma .
Also that even that lenght of ime is but a blink of the eye in how long this thing has been happening...
also there were other buddhas who could tell of the same amount of time before this amount of time...on and on and on..
Sakyamuni and His other two Kaya bodies are not the Primordial Myo ho Renge Kyo.
Sakyamune is dead...the body long gone...His other emanations probably are on other world systems needing the physical body.
His other dharma kaya body and sambhogakaya body exist. but were won. realized, acquired...so to speak.
OK. Let's do this again.

1. In the Life Span chapter, the Buddha tells the metaphor of grinding the world into dust and then traveling East, dropping one atom every thousand worlds. Then taking all that lands passed, grinding those into atoms. Each atom represents an eon. The Buddha explains that his life exceeds that three fold. The point of this exercise is to demonstrate that all the Assembly together could not fathom this amount of time. Later in the same chapter, the Buddha describes himself as nitya. I've seen this translated as "eternal". Maybe better understood as "beyond time".

2. The Assembly in the Air is timeless. It is always going on above the pure saha world. Being in the air, this signifies its beyond cause and effect.

3. In the Lotus schools, it is accepted that Shakyamuni's life span, including his three bodies, is without beginning or end.

4. The way I understand it, and this is not backed up in anything I can point to, each time a Buddha attains enlightenment, its always the same - they always receive prophecy of enlightenment from another Buddha and practice under other Buddhas. Its the same view everytime. There was never a "first Buddha"... they're always all the first, who's path to enlightenment stretches back to the past under other Buddhas. The end of the rainbow is always beyond - past is always past, future always future, present always present. The Primordial Buddha is the most ancient one conceivable. But there is always another that is even more ancient. - My father explained infinity to me when I was a kid by saying - think of the biggest number you can think of, and add one. That's then the biggest number, but you can always add one again, and again and again and again.

---

Shoshu saw this infinite regression and insinuated some deified Nichiren.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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