Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28703
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Malcolm » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:29 am

Minobu wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:15 am
i'm starting to think all comes from dharmadhatu ???
Dharmadhātu is a collective name for the emptiness of all phenomena.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1812
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:38 am

Minobu wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:15 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:08 am
Minobu wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:02 am

[...]
so this primordial buddha is different in a way it is not really a Buddha as we have come to know them... but(pure) Dharmadhatu from beginningless time.
Here is a pedantic and overly cosmologically oriented question that I am sure will get no one anywhere.

Is dharmadhātu sufficient for dharmakāya or is 'contact' with a Buddha's realization required?

Oh the scholasticism.

I also think it might be a redundant and self-answering question, but this could suddenly turn interesting. Or not.
i think the dharmakaya body is won when one is awakened to the DharmaDhatu...or it just happens when one awakens.
i'm starting to think all comes from dharmadhatu ???
Dharmadhātu though is just emptiness is it not? Since that is the (only?) universal principle/characterization of the dharmāḥ in their totality? Yes? No? If so, what can "come from" or be arisen from emptiness?

EDIT: Malcom beat me to it. Either way, Ven Nāgārjuna's MMK addresses this.
佛子。如來智慧。無相智慧。無閡智慧。具足在於眾生身中。但愚癡眾生顛倒想覆。不知不見不生信心。
O, sons and daughters. The Thus-Gone's wisdom. The signless wisdom. The unobstructed wisdom. It perfectly dwells within all sentient beings’ minds. Yet in ignorance, sentient beings err and think it covered. Not knowing, not seeing, not giving rise to faith.
Āryamaitreyanāthasyottarekayānaratnagotraśāstra T1611.827b20

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28703
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Malcolm » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:01 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:38 am
Minobu wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:15 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:08 am

Here is a pedantic and overly cosmologically oriented question that I am sure will get no one anywhere.

Is dharmadhātu sufficient for dharmakāya or is 'contact' with a Buddha's realization required?

Oh the scholasticism.

I also think it might be a redundant and self-answering question, but this could suddenly turn interesting. Or not.
i think the dharmakaya body is won when one is awakened to the DharmaDhatu...or it just happens when one awakens.
i'm starting to think all comes from dharmadhatu ???
Dharmadhātu though is just emptiness is it not? Since that is the (only?) universal principle/characterization of the dharmāḥ in their totality? Yes? No? If so, what can "come from" or be arisen from emptiness?

EDIT: Malcom beat me to it. Either way, Ven Nāgārjuna's MMK addresses this.
The dharmakāya comes from the accumulation of jñana, that is, the cultivation of the nonconceptual equipoise of a yogic direct perception of emptiness.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1812
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:45 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:01 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:38 am
Minobu wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:15 am


i think the dharmakaya body is won when one is awakened to the DharmaDhatu...or it just happens when one awakens.
i'm starting to think all comes from dharmadhatu ???
Dharmadhātu though is just emptiness is it not? Since that is the (only?) universal principle/characterization of the dharmāḥ in their totality? Yes? No? If so, what can "come from" or be arisen from emptiness?

EDIT: Malcom beat me to it. Either way, Ven Nāgārjuna's MMK addresses this.
The dharmakāya comes from the accumulation of jñana, that is, the cultivation of the nonconceptual equipoise of a yogic direct perception of emptiness.
Interestingly, it is specified that the teaching of the Lifespan chapter comes to us from abhijñā ("direct-knowing").

「汝等諦聽,如來祕密神通之力。
"You all listen carefully, to the Tathāgata's mysterious hidden abhijñāyāḥ ("direct-knowing's") power.

If my pretentious declension is correct.
佛子。如來智慧。無相智慧。無閡智慧。具足在於眾生身中。但愚癡眾生顛倒想覆。不知不見不生信心。
O, sons and daughters. The Thus-Gone's wisdom. The signless wisdom. The unobstructed wisdom. It perfectly dwells within all sentient beings’ minds. Yet in ignorance, sentient beings err and think it covered. Not knowing, not seeing, not giving rise to faith.
Āryamaitreyanāthasyottarekayānaratnagotraśāstra T1611.827b20

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28703
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Malcolm » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:07 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:45 am
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:01 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:38 am


Dharmadhātu though is just emptiness is it not? Since that is the (only?) universal principle/characterization of the dharmāḥ in their totality? Yes? No? If so, what can "come from" or be arisen from emptiness?

EDIT: Malcom beat me to it. Either way, Ven Nāgārjuna's MMK addresses this.
The dharmakāya comes from the accumulation of jñana, that is, the cultivation of the nonconceptual equipoise of a yogic direct perception of emptiness.
Interestingly, it is specified that the teaching of the Lifespan chapter comes to us from abhijñā ("direct-knowing").

「汝等諦聽,如來祕密神通之力。
"You all listen carefully, to the Tathāgata's mysterious hidden abhijñāyāḥ ("direct-knowing's") power.

If my pretentious declension is correct.
The six abhijñā's are part of a buddha's qualities.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 2156
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:42 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:38 am
If so, what can "come from" or be arisen from emptiness?

EDIT: Malcom beat me to it. Either way, Ven Nāgārjuna's MMK addresses this.
it's the way it all arises

User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 2156
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:39 pm

Minobu wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:42 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:38 am
If so, what can "come from" or be arisen from emptiness?

EDIT: Malcom beat me to it. Either way, Ven Nāgārjuna's MMK addresses this.
it's the way it all arises
let me explain
it's all about mind and fields ...
and the emptiness is not a thing but the way it all arises and appears..
the reason
it's perfection is change. without change there can be no allowance for the appearance of anything.it's change that makes it all possible.


but this is all just minobu trying to figure it out...so take it with a grain of black barley ....

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 6457
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Queequeg » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:06 pm

To understand what is meant by "Eternal Buddha" we have to make clear that the view is framed by the Three Thousand in a Single Moment of Thought.
When we come to the essential teaching of the Lotus Sutra, then the belief that Shakyamuni first obtained Buddhahood during his present lifetime is demolished, and the effects of the four teachings are likewise demolished. When the effects of the four teachings are demolished, the causes of the four teachings are likewise demolished. Thus the cause and effect of the Ten Worlds as expounded in the earlier sutras and the theoretical teaching of the Lotus Sutra are wiped out, and the cause and effect of the Ten Worlds in the essential teaching are revealed. This is the doctrine of original cause and original effect. It reveals that the nine worlds are all present in beginningless Buddhahood and that Buddhahood is inherent in the beginningless nine worlds. This is the true mutual possession of the Ten Worlds, the true hundred worlds and thousand factors, the true three thousand realms in a single moment of life.
Kaimoku-sho, Opening of the Eyes
The “Life Span” chapter reads, “It has been immeasurable, boundless hundreds, thousands, ten thousands, millions of nayutas of kalpas since I in fact attained Buddhahood.” The Shakyamuni Buddha within our lives is the eternal Buddha since time without beginning, who obtained the three bodies more than numberless major world system dust particle kalpas ago.
Kanjin-no-Honzon-sho, Object of Devotion for Observing the Mind

This same passage is translated by Senchu Murano alternatively:
The Buddha says in the “Chapter on the Duration of the Life of the Tathågata” [in the Hokekyo]:
To tell the truth, good men, it has been many hundreds of thousands of billions of nayutas of kalpas since I became the Buddha.
The Buddha who says this is Sakyamuni, the World-honored One, who lives in our minds. “Many hundreds of thousands of billions of nayutas of kalpas” is also expressed as “five hundred thousand billion worlds dust particle kalpas.” This is a numerical expression of the Buddha’s beginninglessness.
The Buddha revealed here is the oldest Buddha without beginning.
Zhiyi remarked, "If there is no thought, that is the end of the matter. If there is even an ephemeral thought, this includes the three thousand." When we talk about "Eternal Buddha", whether we call it Shakyamuni or Myohorengekyo, it is implicitly understood that Buddha means Buddha in the context of the Three Thousand. This whole discussion, trying to pinpoint who became enlightened, when, is deeply misguided and ultimately will not yield any answer that will bring one closer to enlightenment. This is question that is meaningful only from a provisional perspective, but because the provisional perspective is by definition limited, a complete exploration of this inquiry will only demonstrate the fatal incompleteness of the provisional perspective.

To speak of Buddha without living beings is categorically meaningless. And actually, to speak of living beings without Buddha is meaningless.

If there are living beings, then the Buddha in Three Bodies are arisen in perfect complement. Since there is no beginning to living beings, there is no beginning to Buddha. We call this timeless Buddha Shakyamuni. We also call this Buddha Myohorengekyo. We also call this Buddha the Original Buddha. We also call this Buddha the Eternal Buddha.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28703
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Malcolm » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:20 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:06 pm
If there are living beings, then the Buddha in Three Bodies are arisen in perfect complement. Since there is no beginning to living beings, there is no beginning to Buddha. We call this timeless Buddha Shakyamuni. We also call this Buddha Myohorengekyo. We also call this Buddha the Original Buddha. We also call this Buddha the Eternal Buddha.
You can also call this buddha Vajrasattva, Vajradhara, Samantabhadra, Amitabha, Akshobhya, Adibuddha, etc.

However, "who obtained the three bodies more than numberless major world system dust particle kalpas ago" is standard Mahāyāna. The Buddha attained buddhahood at some point in the distant past and did not start out as an awakened being.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 6457
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Queequeg » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:44 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:20 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:06 pm
If there are living beings, then the Buddha in Three Bodies are arisen in perfect complement. Since there is no beginning to living beings, there is no beginning to Buddha. We call this timeless Buddha Shakyamuni. We also call this Buddha Myohorengekyo. We also call this Buddha the Original Buddha. We also call this Buddha the Eternal Buddha.
You can also call this buddha Vajrasattva, Vajradhara, Samantabhadra, Amitabha, Akshobhya, Adibuddha, etc.

However, "who obtained the three bodies more than numberless major world system dust particle kalpas ago" is standard Mahāyāna. The Buddha attained buddhahood at some point in the distant past and did not start out as an awakened being.
Yep, I just responded to this point in the thread in the Mahayana forum, along these lines. In this forum, I refer only to Shakyamuni or Myohorengekyo.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28703
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Malcolm » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:56 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:44 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:20 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:06 pm
If there are living beings, then the Buddha in Three Bodies are arisen in perfect complement. Since there is no beginning to living beings, there is no beginning to Buddha. We call this timeless Buddha Shakyamuni. We also call this Buddha Myohorengekyo. We also call this Buddha the Original Buddha. We also call this Buddha the Eternal Buddha.
You can also call this buddha Vajrasattva, Vajradhara, Samantabhadra, Amitabha, Akshobhya, Adibuddha, etc.

However, "who obtained the three bodies more than numberless major world system dust particle kalpas ago" is standard Mahāyāna. The Buddha attained buddhahood at some point in the distant past and did not start out as an awakened being.
Yep, I just responded to this point in the thread in the Mahayana forum, along these lines. In this forum, I refer only to Shakyamuni or Myohorengekyo.
As Shakespeare said:
’Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
Thou art thyself though, not a Montague.
What’s Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot,
Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
Belonging to a man. O! be some other name:
What’s in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 6457
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Queequeg » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:12 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:56 pm
As Shakespeare said:
’Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
Thou art thyself though, not a Montague.
What’s Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot,
Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
Belonging to a man. O! be some other name:
What’s in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
Some of my fellows may call me a slanderer for agreeing with this. :meditate:
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28703
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Malcolm » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:20 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:12 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:56 pm
As Shakespeare said:
’Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
Thou art thyself though, not a Montague.
What’s Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot,
Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
Belonging to a man. O! be some other name:
What’s in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
Some of my fellows may call me a slanderer for agreeing with this. :meditate:
That's their problem, not yours.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
The Cicada
Posts: 935
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:15 am
Location: Trumpaloka

Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by The Cicada » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:32 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:56 pm
As Shakespeare said:
’Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
Thou art thyself though, not a Montague.
What’s Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot,
Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
Belonging to a man. O! be some other name:
What’s in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:20 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:06 pm
If there are living beings, then the Buddha in Three Bodies are arisen in perfect complement. Since there is no beginning to living beings, there is no beginning to Buddha. We call this timeless Buddha Shakyamuni. We also call this Buddha Myohorengekyo. We also call this Buddha the Original Buddha. We also call this Buddha the Eternal Buddha.
You can also call this buddha Vajrasattva, Vajradhara, Samantabhadra, Amitabha, Akshobhya, Adibuddha, etc.
You could also just call these Buddhas Vajrasattva, Vajradhara, Samantabhadra, Amitabha, Akshobhya, Adibuddha, our Lord Shakyamuni Buddha, since he actually appeared in this world to teach us. This takes us back to Nichiren's teaching: Why revere other Buddhas when this one is close by and reaching out to us? Why run off to a Pure Land when you're already in His Pure Land of the Saha Realm?

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28703
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:48 am

The Cicada wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:32 am

You could also just call these Buddhas Vajrasattva, Vajradhara, Samantabhadra, Amitabha, Akshobhya, Adibuddha, our Lord Shakyamuni Buddha, since he actually appeared in this world to teach us. This takes us back to Nichiren's teaching: Why revere other Buddhas when this one is close by and reaching out to us?
Several buddhas have appeared in this world to teach us, and many more will appear (another 997).

Buddhas are not restricted by time and space. Buddhas also do not "reach out." Their compassion is spontaneous, like a wishfulfilling gem that satisfies all wishes.

This Sahaloka is an impure buddhafield because the experience of the various sufferings of this world system are unthinkable. Of course the Buddha was kind to prepare this buddhafield, but don't kid yourself into thinking there aren't better places to be.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1812
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:35 pm

I guess it all comes down to the belief that the LS is the definitive teaching of the Buddhas, who are all, in this framework, conceived of as identical to Śākyamuni Buddha.

Because of this differing perspective of Lotus Buddhism, all Buddhas (I still can't bring myself to type 'sarvabuddhāḥ' for some reason, I suppose there is a limit to even my own pretentiousness), and all Buddha-nature, are not only referred to as, but are also conceived of as, identical completely to Śākyamuni Buddha & Śākyamuni Buddha's respectively, who, in this context, is not a (normal Mahāyāna) nirmāṇakāya because of the constraints and limitations applied to such nirmāṇakāyāḥ. The LS differently presents the nirmāṇakāya. If one approaches Śākyamuni Buddha under the presumptions normative for a nirmāṇakāya in non-LS Buddhism, than one basically gets a huge Buddhist heresy.

Thoughts? Is this off the mark completely?
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
佛子。如來智慧。無相智慧。無閡智慧。具足在於眾生身中。但愚癡眾生顛倒想覆。不知不見不生信心。
O, sons and daughters. The Thus-Gone's wisdom. The signless wisdom. The unobstructed wisdom. It perfectly dwells within all sentient beings’ minds. Yet in ignorance, sentient beings err and think it covered. Not knowing, not seeing, not giving rise to faith.
Āryamaitreyanāthasyottarekayānaratnagotraśāstra T1611.827b20

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 6457
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Queequeg » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:47 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:48 am
Buddhas also do not "reach out." Their compassion is spontaneous, like a wishfulfilling gem that satisfies all wishes.
In a conventional sense, they do. It appears to beings that the Buddha extends his compassion. In the perfect teaching, we understand that the Buddha and the dharmadhatu in whole is the spontaneous compassion of the Buddha, and that all of it is the spontaneous reflection of our mind.

This Sahaloka is an impure buddhafield because the experience of the various sufferings of this world system are unthinkable. Of course the Buddha was kind to prepare this buddhafield, but don't kid yourself into thinking there aren't better places to be.
“You must not despise that world nor think it inferior. O son of a virtuous family! The land of that sahā world is uneven and irregular and is filled with mud, stones, mountains, and filth. The Buddha is short of body, as are the bodhisattvas. By contrast, your body is forty-two thousand yojanas tall, and my body is six million eight hundred thousand yojanas tall. Your body is perfect in its bearing and illuminated most beautifully with hundreds of millions of merits. Yet, when you go there you must not despise that country nor think the Buddha, bodhisattvas, or the world itself inferior.”
Lotus Sutra, Bodhisattva Gadgadasvara Chapter (24)
“In the lower direction, separated from here by buddha lands as numerous as the sands of forty-two Ganges Rivers, is a world named sahā. The buddha there is named Śākyamuni, who exists at present in an evil age of the five corruptions. He extensively disseminates the teaching of the path in order to enlighten those who delight in inferior dharmas...

[Y]ou must not harbor feelings of belittlement or thoughts of the hindrances [present in that world]. Why? The countries of the ten directions are all like space (i.e., devoid of fixed reality). Furthermore, [you should realize] that the buddhas do not completely manifest their pure lands solely in order to convert those who delight in inferior dharmas.”
Vimalakirtinirdesa
16. At that time Conch Crest Brahmā King said to Śāriputra, “Do not think thus, saying that this buddha land is not pure. Why? I have witnessed the purity of Śākyamuni’s buddha land. It is like the heavenly palace of Īśvara.”

Śāriputra said, “As I observe this land, it is hills and hollows, brambles and gravel, and rocks and mountains—all filled with defilements.”

Conch Crest Brahmā King said, “Sir, your mind has (i.e., perceives) high and low because you are not relying on buddha wisdom. Hence you perceive this land as impure. Śāriputra, the bodhisattva is universally same [in attitude] regarding all sentient beings. The purity of his profound mind relies on buddha wisdom and therefore is able to perceive the purity of this buddha land.”

17. At this the Buddha pointed to the earth with his toe, and instantly the trimegachiliocosm was as if ornamented with a hundred thousand jewels. It was like the Jewel Ornamentation land, with all its immeasurable merits, of Jewel Ornament Buddha.

The entire great assembly exclaimed at this unprecedented event, and they all saw themselves sitting on many-jeweled lotus flowers.

18. The Buddha told Śāriputra, “You should now observe the purity of this buddha land.”

Śāriputra said, “So it is, World-honored One. Originally I did not see it; originally I did not hear it. Now the purity of the Buddha’s country is entirely
apparent.”

The Buddha said to Śāriputra, “My buddha country is always pure, like this. It is only so as to save inferior persons here that I manifest it as a defiled and impure land. It is like the many-jeweled eating utensils used in common by the gods, the food in which is of different colors depending on their merits. Just so, Śāriputra, if a person’s mind is pure he sees the merits and ornaments of this land.”
Vimalakirtinirdesa

etc.

The Buddha being the perfect, spontaneous response to the beings of this world, so is his world, isn't it? This land is perfectly conditioned to the needs of the beings in this land. It is also a perfect reflection of the beings in this land. Sure there might be better places... even in this defiled world there are little heavens and pure lands. I'd rather be Montelcino sipping Brunello and eating truffle tartufo and cinghale salami than being stranded in Hunts Point on a cold, rainy night.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 6457
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Queequeg » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:50 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:35 pm
I guess it all comes down to the belief that the LS is the definitive teaching of the Buddhas, who are all, in this framework, conceived of as identical to Śākyamuni Buddha.

Because of this differing perspective of Lotus Buddhism, all Buddhas (I still can't bring myself to type 'Buddhāḥ' for some reason, I suppose there is a limit to even my own pretentiousness), and all Buddha-nature, are not only referred to as, but are also conceived of as, identical completely to Śākyamuni Buddha & Śākyamuni Buddha's respectively, who, in this context, is not a (normal Mahāyāna) nirmāṇakāya because the constraints and limitations applied to such nirmāṇakāyāḥ. The LS differently presents the nirmāṇakāya. If one approaches Śākyamuni Buddha under the presumptions normative for a nirmāṇakāya in non-LS Buddhism, than one basically gets a huge Buddhist heresy.

Thoughts? Is this off the mark completely?
I think that's right. And the sutra self consciously seems to say as much - 5000 in the Assembly get up and leave before it even starts. Repeatedly the assembly is surprised by revelations. "I wasn't really born in Gaya... I don't really die..." "Am I lying?"
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 6457
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Queequeg » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:57 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:50 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:35 pm
I guess it all comes down to the belief that the LS is the definitive teaching of the Buddhas, who are all, in this framework, conceived of as identical to Śākyamuni Buddha.

Because of this differing perspective of Lotus Buddhism, all Buddhas (I still can't bring myself to type 'Buddhāḥ' for some reason, I suppose there is a limit to even my own pretentiousness), and all Buddha-nature, are not only referred to as, but are also conceived of as, identical completely to Śākyamuni Buddha & Śākyamuni Buddha's respectively, who, in this context, is not a (normal Mahāyāna) nirmāṇakāya because the constraints and limitations applied to such nirmāṇakāyāḥ. The LS differently presents the nirmāṇakāya. If one approaches Śākyamuni Buddha under the presumptions normative for a nirmāṇakāya in non-LS Buddhism, than one basically gets a huge Buddhist heresy.

Thoughts? Is this off the mark completely?
I think that's right. And the sutra self consciously seems to say as much - 5000 in the Assembly get up and leave before it even starts. Repeatedly the assembly is surprised by revelations. "I wasn't really born in Gaya... I don't really die..." "Am I lying?"
Zhiyi was criticized for his views based on the Sutra. Others have tried to interpret away some of the more remarkable aspects of the text.

Might be relevant:

https://tricycle.org/magazine/greater-awakening/
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 6457
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha

Post by Queequeg » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:07 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:47 pm
even in this defiled world there are little heavens and pure lands. I'd rather be Montelcino sipping Brunello and eating truffle tartufo and cinghale salami than being stranded in Hunts Point on a cold, rainy night.
To finish this thought... Seeking enlightenment with a beautiful view of the ocean in a big house in Big Sur designed by an acclaimed architect is wholly different than practicing for oneself and for others in the South Bronx. Much easier to practice dharma when conditions are optimal. Its a whole different level of accomplishment to practice dharma in the midst of the world.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

Locked

Return to “Nichiren”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], justsomeguy and 36 guests