Grievances, real and fictional

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DGA
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Grievances, real and fictional

Post by DGA »

I think it is easy to motivate people to do horrible things if you convince them they have some kind of grievance against someone else. That someone else doesn't even need to be real--it can be a fiction, like Reagan's summoning of the "Welfare Queen."

Here's an example.
a majority of white people think they are discriminated against, but only a much smaller percentage can think of an actual example that happened to them personally.
https://splinternews.com/white-people-s ... 1819813320

The Trump campaign and its collaborators have mobilized this sense of grievance against the other in strategic ways. So have far-right assholes in Europe and elsewhere. They do it because it works.

I think Daesh follows this logic too. This is one of the things Daesh has in common with other conservative and reactionary movements across the world, actually. Context:

viewtopic.php?f=47&p=412484#p412484

This is a problem, of course, because there are plenty of peoples on planet Earth who have endured serious trauma and suffering, and who have legitimate grievances. This is why, say, Black Lives Matter (working to address a legitimate grievance) is different in form and function from the tea party and its affiliates (living in a phantasmagoria of fake grievances and manufactured fears).
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Re: Grievances, real and fictional

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

The Trump campaign and its collaborators have mobilized this sense of grievance against the other in strategic ways. So have far-right assholes in Europe and elsewhere. They do it because it works.
In the case of both ISIL and the Trumpists, it works because of 1) a partial truth in the grievance, and 2) a kind of moral hypocrisy or lack of alternative on the "other side" to the side presenting the grievance.

In the case of Trump, present-day mainstream "Liberalism" is a hollow shell, divorced from either it's previous image as an occasional advocate for the working class, or civil society more generally, both of which have been neutered by neoliberalism and it's slow transfer of all civic values into economic ones. Witness the number of liberals these days who have positive associations with giant monopolies like Google and Facebook, simply due to one-dimensional perception of their approach to issues like "diversity"...whatever "liberalism" once was, it isn't that anymore. It's pitiful these days, listening to some liberals talk, it no longer surprises me at all that Trump made it in. I wish it did, but it doesn't.

In that vacuum, Trump can play off legitimate anxieties. Will he fix any of it? Oh of course not, he's not capable, nor does he want to. The thing is though, in a strange way some white people ARE discriminated against, both culturally and economically. It's not actually because they're white people, it's because they're workers and rural poor people..but in the present environment (just think, it is still ok to mock "dumb redneck white people" in a way that would be completely unthinkable with other groups in liberal circles) I can see why they mistakenly think it's about their race and culture, rather than what it's really about - their class and place of economic disadvantage. Hell, Trump's rhetoric even freaking plays to that, once the "deplorables" thing happened, the rest wasn't that shocking, at least in retrospect. it's easy to hate Trump (really easy, he's disgusting and hilariously clueless on so many levels) , but not to look at the sucking vacuum that allowed him to be. When was the last time the mainstream Democratic presidential candidate talked that much about infrastructure, the negative effects of trade deals, etc.? Obama sold his shit out almost right away.

ISIS grievances work much the same way. The US doesn't kill Muslims because they are Muslims, but the fact that we have so many years of regime change, military occupation, drone bombings, and double standards about human rights in Muslim countries makes it quite easy for them to paint that picture. It's not a narrative that makes sense upon examination, but they are counting on the emotional content of the grievance overriding that, and it does.

In short, the only real "fix" is a more attractive, less crazy alternative..in the case of Trump a political movement that can actually address the legitimate economic disenfranchisement (including disenfranchised whites, believe me, they exist, I see it working in addictions) he leverages without all the idiotic racism, hypernationalism, and the other drivel that comes out of his "platform"..there's a reason populist rhetoric works. On the side of ISIL the only fix I can imagine is a movement that legitimately cares about the self determination of average Muslims and/or Middle Easterners, allows it, and presents it as alternative to the insane violent feudalism. The issue there is enough years of crappy theocracy (and lack of autonomy due to interference form the US, etc.) to stand in the way of something like that even coming into being.

Short of those things existing, I personally find it really unsurprising that either one is successful in hawking their grievances.
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Re: Grievances, real and fictional

Post by caligirl »

The current radical left is as much of a tyranny as the right. X2

I live in a rebel state. There's really no space for conversation. You doubt the liberals, you get fired and lose all of your friends. This is what they thought progressive means.
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Re: Grievances, real and fictional

Post by pothigai »

caligirl wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:33 am The current radical left is as much of a tyranny as the right. X2

I live in a rebel state. There's really no space for conversation. You doubt the liberals, you get fired and lose all of your friends. This is what they thought progressive means.
Liberals aren't really the radical left. A fair amount of people on the radical left are actually critical of this type of witch-hunting.
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Re: Grievances, real and fictional

Post by Yavana »

DGA wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:32 am I think it is easy to motivate people to do horrible things if you convince them they have some kind of grievance against someone else.
The only way to understand the other side is to literally go talk to them and attempt a dispassionate (there really is no such thing as "unbiased" or "objective," is there?) dialogue. Anything less just leaves you in your own perspective with no added understanding. As a person who often is suspected of being one of (((teh juice!))) by many Trumpians, I can tell you that this isn't always easy. Neither side is exactly "reasonable."

We have a lot of contradictions in our society. I remember seeing a video on repeat in NY where (somewhat well-off looking) grandchildren of Holocaust survivors said they felt personally traumatized by it, somehow, despite not actually experiencing it. Meanwhile, how many monuments do we have dedicated to the victims of the native American genocide? Why isn't Thanksgiving a day of national penance and mourning? What is the Jewish or Japanese internment compared that?

Some things we just have to let go. There are too many potential grievances, stretching back into infinity, for society to address them politically. What is important is learning to make the present better without demonizing the other side. Reconciliation is always better than civil war, and when each side refuses to compromise, fighting to redress their respective grievances is all that's left.

... Kind of like what the US and ISIS are doing.
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Re: Grievances, real and fictional

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DGA wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:32 am the tea party and its affiliates (living in a phantasmagoria of fake grievances and manufactured fears).
Not to toot my own horn... but...

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=22958&p=343436&hil ... ty#p343436

When we talk about Tea Party, what exactly do we mean these days? I ask because the Tea Party movement seems to have evaporated, replaced by Trumpism.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
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Re: Grievances, real and fictional

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:16 pm
DGA wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:32 am the tea party and its affiliates (living in a phantasmagoria of fake grievances and manufactured fears).
Not to toot my own horn... but...

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=22958&p=343436&hil ... ty#p343436

When we talk about Tea Party, what exactly do we mean these days? I ask because the Tea Party movement seems to have evaporated, replaced by Trumpism.

Tea Party = Trumpism. Trump is the Tea Party Messiah.
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Re: Grievances, real and fictional

Post by Yavana »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:16 pm Not to toot my own horn... but...

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=22958&p=343436&hil ... ty#p343436
You? Toot your own horn? You're far too humble a person for that, Queequeg. In fact, if you and I were to have a humility contest, I would lose. You are so much wiser, well educated and articulate than I am, for example, that I would have nothing to be humble about. I could only be honest.
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Re: Grievances, real and fictional

Post by PuerAzaelis »

The Cicada wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:59 pm The only way to understand the other side is to literally go talk to them and attempt a dispassionate (there really is no such thing as "unbiased" or "objective," is there?) dialogue.
I don't think that exists anymore between the two sides, if it ever did.

DW is quite a rarefied atmosphere.

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Re: Grievances, real and fictional

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:17 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:16 pm
DGA wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:32 am the tea party and its affiliates (living in a phantasmagoria of fake grievances and manufactured fears).
Not to toot my own horn... but...

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=22958&p=343436&hil ... ty#p343436

When we talk about Tea Party, what exactly do we mean these days? I ask because the Tea Party movement seems to have evaporated, replaced by Trumpism.

Tea Party = Trumpism. Trump is the Tea Party Messiah.
If that is the case... and I don't want to be accused of trumpeting for Trumpism... I don't know if the grievances of people in "Trump Country" are fake or that their fears are manufactured. I think this view underestimates the circumstances across a lot of places being left behind in the present economy and the social problems that have followed. That said, what demagogues like Trump have done with those real problems is truly deplorable. On this point, I think I'm preaching to the choir here when I say, "Shoulda been Bernie."
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Grievances, real and fictional

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Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:31 pm I don't know if the grievances of people in "Trump Country" are fake or that their fears are manufactured.
Sorry, need to clarify myself on this - not entirely manufactured. There is definitely exploitation of deep and real concerns that are whipped up and sublimated into the exaggerated fear and anger associated with Trumpism/Tea Party.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Grievances, real and fictional

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:31 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:17 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:16 pm

Not to toot my own horn... but...

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=22958&p=343436&hil ... ty#p343436

When we talk about Tea Party, what exactly do we mean these days? I ask because the Tea Party movement seems to have evaporated, replaced by Trumpism.

Tea Party = Trumpism. Trump is the Tea Party Messiah.
If that is the case... and I don't want to be accused of trumpeting for Trumpism... I don't know if the grievances of people in "Trump Country" are fake or that their fears are manufactured. I think this view underestimates the circumstances across a lot of places being left behind in the present economy and the social problems that have followed.
Samsara is a shitty place to try and raise a family.
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Re: Grievances, real and fictional

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:40 pm Samsara is a shitty place to try and raise a family.
Cop out.

Doesn't have to be this sort of shitty.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Grievances, real and fictional

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:38 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:31 pm I don't know if the grievances of people in "Trump Country" are fake or that their fears are manufactured.
Sorry, need to clarify myself on this - not entirely manufactured. There is definitely exploitation of deep and real concerns that are whipped up and sublimated into the exaggerated fear and anger associated with Trumpism/Tea Party.
Nah, the Tea Party was always racist. Now they have their racist messiah.
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Re: Grievances, real and fictional

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:47 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:38 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:31 pm I don't know if the grievances of people in "Trump Country" are fake or that their fears are manufactured.
Sorry, need to clarify myself on this - not entirely manufactured. There is definitely exploitation of deep and real concerns that are whipped up and sublimated into the exaggerated fear and anger associated with Trumpism/Tea Party.
Nah, the Tea Party was always racist. Now they have their racist messiah.
That is an awfully essentialist way to look at it.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Grievances, real and fictional

Post by Yavana »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:38 pmThere is definitely exploitation of deep and real concerns that are whipped up and sublimated into the exaggerated fear and anger associated with Trumpism/Tea Party.
I think this exist on both sides.
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Re: Grievances, real and fictional

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:51 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:47 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:38 pm

Sorry, need to clarify myself on this - not entirely manufactured. There is definitely exploitation of deep and real concerns that are whipped up and sublimated into the exaggerated fear and anger associated with Trumpism/Tea Party.
Nah, the Tea Party was always racist. Now they have their racist messiah.
That is an awfully essentialist way to look at it.

Before Obama, no tea party. After Obama...you connect the dots.
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Re: Grievances, real and fictional

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:13 pm Before Obama, no tea party. After Obama...you connect the dots.
I was there at the beginning - see my link above. It started because of the bailouts. They hated Bush, too, especially Paulson's midnight stick-up of the treasury.

It started with finance guys who were screaming for the whole thing to collapse and reset, or alternatively, if the government was going to pay out money, calling for infrastructure instead of bank bailouts. Relevant:

Then the hoi polloi joined with the Koch brothers seeding the astro-turf phase. And then all that birther crap came up, but that was later.

Now, I'm not saying that the gold bugs and bond traders who started it all are not racist. But race was not the motivating issue for them. Sentiment breaks right among that crowd, but there were just as many calling for a New Deal. It wasn't until the yahoos got involved that the New Deal faction bailed out. A lot of them, I suspect turned out for Bernie.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Grievances, real and fictional

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

pothigai wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:38 pm
caligirl wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:33 am The current radical left is as much of a tyranny as the right. X2

I live in a rebel state. There's really no space for conversation. You doubt the liberals, you get fired and lose all of your friends. This is what they thought progressive means.
Liberals aren't really the radical left. A fair amount of people on the radical left are actually critical of this type of witch-hunting.

Thank you. How modern "SJW" culture got to define what "radical left" means for people I have no idea.
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

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Re: Grievances, real and fictional

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:42 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:40 pm Samsara is a shitty place to try and raise a family.
Cop out.

Doesn't have to be this sort of shitty.
It could be much worse.
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