Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:20 amOf course, it has the same 'vague/general gist' as the Ven Kumārajīva authoritative recension, but its actual terminology complies neither with the Kumārajīva nor the Sanskrit it doesn't seem. I'll post more once I've looked at it harder.
This is the section in question from Ven Dharmarakṣa:
It appears to identify the speaker of the Lotus Sūtra directly as 法者, dharmakāya, but I'm still looking at it.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward. (T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:20 amOf course, it has the same 'vague/general gist' as the Ven Kumārajīva authoritative recension, but its actual terminology complies neither with the Kumārajīva nor the Sanskrit it doesn't seem. I'll post more once I've looked at it harder.
This is the section in question from Ven Dharmarakṣa:
It is much longer and much more detailed than Ven Kumārajīva's. The Chinese is also a bit older (~200AD vs 400s AD like most older Chinese Buddhavacana in general, like the Chinese EBTs for instance) and a lot harder to understand, for me at least. So finding a parallel for 分身 is a bit of a task. Hopefully someone here who is more qualified than I will take an interest in this thread, as at this point, I am a bit out of my depth.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward. (T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Queequeg wrote:The Sanskrit is given as atmabhava nirmita and alternatively, tathagata-vigraha.
I found something similar:
tathāgatasyātmabhāvastiṣṭhati ekaghanaḥ
But my Sanskrit is sufficiently poor that I'm not sure I'm even looking at the correct section. "Ekaghana" looks, though, like it could be "gather" or "come into one".
This is not quite accurate, the above, I mean. Tathāgatasyātmabhāvastiṣṭhati ekaghanaḥ may well mean something like "the hidden ātmabhāva of the Tathāgata becomes solid" but I am not altogether sure.
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward. (T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:20 amOf course, it has the same 'vague/general gist' as the Ven Kumārajīva authoritative recension, but its actual terminology complies neither with the Kumārajīva nor the Sanskrit it doesn't seem. I'll post more once I've looked at it harder.
This is the section in question from Ven Dharmarakṣa:
It is much longer and much more detailed than Ven Kumārajīva's. The Chinese is also a bit older (~200AD vs 400s AD like most older Chinese Buddhavacana in general, like the Chinese EBTs for instance) and a lot harder to understand, for me at least. So finding a parallel for 分身 is a bit of a task. Hopefully someone here who is more qualified than I will take an interest in this thread, as at this point, I am a bit out of my depth.
Look at the glossary I linked above. The correspondence between Kumarajiva and Dharmarksa is already done. The same author did a glossary, same methodology, for Dharmarksa. The heavy lifting is done...
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Queequeg wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:12 am
Look at the glossary I linked above. The correspondence between Kumarajiva and Dharmarksa is already done. The same author did a glossary, same methodology, for Dharmarksa. The heavy lifting is done...
But I can't 'command+F' it.... its so long.... I'm simply too 'millennial', I can't handle it. System overload.
...in all seriousness though I'll look through it eventually, its just a bit wieldly to learn how to navigate the document.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward. (T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Kids these days... You know, we used to have to answer the phone to find out who was calling...
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Queequeg wrote: ↑Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:13 pm
Kids these days... You know, we used to have to answer the phone to find out who was calling...
You guys used to answer your phones?
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward. (T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
I still think the narrative of Buddha Prabhutaratna in the Lotus Sutra disrupts any narrative predicated in the same text of Buddha Shakyamuni as an "eternal Buddha."
To my mind, this is another way in which the Lotus Sutra is of a piece with Indian Mahayana, which is unremarkable because it is an Indian Mahayana text.
I have misplaced the reference, but IIRC the interplay between Sakyamuni and Prabhutaratna is foundational to the development of the eternal vs distant past vs present manifestation, related to the guest/host roles.
narhwal90 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:14 pm
I have misplaced the reference, but IIRC the interplay between Sakyamuni and Prabhutaratna is foundational to the development of the eternal vs distant past vs present manifestation, related to the guest/host roles.
This discussion is beginning to sound like film school.
rory wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:22 pm
So in Tiantai philosophy there is no before time or after time, it is not linear. This is the Truth of the Middle.
I hope I have explained this well as it is extremely important and the essence of Tiantai.
gassho
Rory
Stephen Hawkins on time says it is a circle.
simply put , it bends in on itself to form a circle.
His famous words"i understand that i can remember yesterday but i don;t know why i can't remember tomorrow."
is this similar.
also i am turning to this section for answers to some of my questions.
it seems this is the source school for Nichiren DaiShonin.
rory wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:35 am
You don't seem to understand the Lotus Sutra or Tiantai/Tendai philosophy at all: time is not linear. This is how Shakyamuni Buddha can be teaching on Sacred Vulture Peak at the same time people think he passed into Nirvana.
Ultimately, time is not linear (if there is such a thing as time). But sentient beings do not experience it that way. This is why, among other things, texts like the Lotus Sutra have concurrent chapters, parables have beginnings and ends, jokes have set-ups and punchlines...
This is why different Buddhas appear to appear at different times and different places to different beings. Ultimately this is incoherent but to sentient beings, it is the only reality.
rory wrote: ↑Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:22 pm
All right now I have the time and text to give a fuller explanation:
We are dealing with Flower Garland (Avatamsaka, Hua-yen, Kegon) philosophy and Tiantai (Tendai) philosophy.
No, the topic of this discussion is "Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna." Not Hua Yen thought, nor the Avatamsaka Sutra. Will your post address the topic of the appearance of Buddha Prabhutaratna in the Lotus Sutra? I'm curious to find out.
Hua-yen thought sees all phenomena as expressions of an originally pure and undifferentiated one mind
Stone Original Enlightenment p.7
So Avatamsaka says there is One Mind and then phenomena follow
A favourite example is the ocean (the One Mind) and the wave (phenomena) which arises and then recedes back into the ocean.
Tiantai denies that everything arises from the One MInd, rather, Chih-I (Zhiyi, Chigi) the founder of the Tiantai schools states
"one may say neither that the one mind is prior and all dharmas posterior nor that all dharmas are prior and the mind posterior...All one can say is that the mind is all dharmas and all dharmas are the mind. Therefore the relationship is neither vertical nor horizontal, neither the same nor different." p. 8.
Tiantai- Tendai philosophy posits the Truth of the Middle or as it is called the Two Truths: All phenomena are empty, all phenomena are provisionally real, both these these truths exist at the same time.
an easy example is : I have a female human body and a buddhanature that is no different from Shakyamuni or Chih-I. Both are true simultaneously.
Additionally both Flower Garden and the Tendai school (which due to its incorporation of esoteric practices) revere Vairocana Buddha (Dainichi Nyorai)
Vairocana Buddha is the Buddha as Dharma body, that is the truth without beginning or end that is inherent in all things. All other Buddhas are seen as manifestations of this cosmic Buddha; so indeed is the universe itself... p.19
So in Tiantai philosophy there is no before time or after time, it is not linear. This is the Truth of the Middle.
Guess not.
But since you raised the topic, is it your position that all Buddhas are manifestations of the dharmakaya, rather than as emanations of Shakyamuni Buddha, as claimed by some at DW?
DGA wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:40 am
But since you raised the topic, is it your position that all Buddhas are manifestations of the dharmakaya, rather than as emanations of Shakyamuni Buddha, as claimed by some at DW?
well if i am already a Buddha , and at the same time a guy on the path , and at the same time and probably an infinite other karmic manifestations of this me on the path...i guess my Sambhogakaya body is a manifestation of dharmakaya .
somewhere there is a Nirmanakaya body and the Dharmakaya Body is just the same as all other Buddhas and everyone else on DW and beyond .
I have now come to terms that because we are taught by Sakyamuni Buddha we tend to go through a time period of adjustment to what He and We really are. so when we speak of emanations of Sakyamuni Buddha ....hmmmm now having a hard time fitting that into the equation so i shall leave it there....
No, the topic of this discussion is "Lotus Sutra: Buddha Prabhutaratna." Not Hua Yen thought, nor the Avatamsaka Sutra. Will your post address the topic of the appearance of Buddha Prabhutaratna in the Lotus Sutra? I'm curious to find out.
I did. Since time isn't linear both Buddhas can appear. The great Master of the Lotus Sutra School, Chih-I [Zhiyi, Chigi] read the sutra this way and I follow him!
You are free to posit something else, what is your position and academic support?
As a follower of Tendai, naturally I follow this:
Vairocana Buddha is the Buddha as Dharma body, that is the truth without beginning or end that is inherent in all things. All other Buddhas are seen as manifestations of this cosmic Buddha; so indeed is the universe itself
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58 https://www.tendai-usa.org/