The DJKR Topic

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Malcolm
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Malcolm » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:05 pm

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:00 pm

That being said, if Your own root guru does insult Rinpoche, I at least can respect that. After all you're just being loyal to your teacher, and of course you will likely agree with their opinion.
Right, because after all Vajrayāna really is just all about clans, fealty, and tribes. :shrug:
Last edited by Malcolm on Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Losal Samten » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:06 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:04 pm
Losal Samten wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:02 pm

I consider saying that ChNN did more damage to the Nyingma than the Chinese an insult.
Where and when did Dzongsar say this?
After the release of Drung, Deu and Bon IIRC. I'll try to get more info.
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
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Malcolm
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Malcolm » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:06 pm

Losal Samten wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:06 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:04 pm
Losal Samten wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:02 pm

I consider saying that ChNN did more damage to the Nyingma than the Chinese an insult.
Where and when did Dzongsar say this?
After the release of Drung, Deu and Bon IIRC. I'll try to get more info.
Ok.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:11 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:01 pm
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:48 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:06 pm



Dzongsar could gun someone down on 5th Avenue in NYC in broad daylight and you would still be posting about how this was actually enlightened activity.
Good one. Use exaggerated examples to try to make viewing a teacher as having enlightened activity delusional.
It is only delusional to see a teacher's activities as awakened if they are demonstrably anything but awakened, for example, the activities of Sogyal Lakar; Trungpa's Regent, Osel Tenzin, etc.
That's a big If .. Thank god you didn't mention Chogyam trungpa rinpoche in that list. I don't think today's crowd would be very fond of him either. By the way it's very difficult to establish what is demonstrably awakened and what is not. I think that a fair amount of teachers who are revered these days had probably done a few things in their life someone would consider shocking.

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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:13 pm

Losal Samten wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:06 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:04 pm
Losal Samten wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:02 pm

I consider saying that ChNN did more damage to the Nyingma than the Chinese an insult.
Where and when did Dzongsar say this?
After the release of Drung, Deu and Bon IIRC. I'll try to get more info.
Please do. Making accusations like that without proof is pretty harmful & irresponsible. You claim it as truth, and yet you do not even know where & when he had purportedly said that.

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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Losal Samten » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:17 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:06 pm
Losal Samten wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:06 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:04 pm


Where and when did Dzongsar say this?
After the release of Drung, Deu and Bon IIRC. I'll try to get more info.
Ok.
Edit: Necklace of Zi.

Send a message to Yudron to see if she remembers the specifics.

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 46#p129646
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:20 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:05 pm
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:00 pm

That being said, if Your own root guru does insult Rinpoche, I at least can respect that. After all you're just being loyal to your teacher, and of course you will likely agree with their opinion.
Right, because after all Vajrayāna really is just all about clans, fealty, and tribes. :shrug:
People tend to agree with what their root guru's stance is .. For example when you were strongly speaking years ago about Dzogchen (Images of a world with an ah on it) how you can be a dzogchenpa without being Buddhist, and upsetting many people, you likely were influenced by the teachings of CHNN.

Though I know today it's popular to not give a rats ass what ones Tsawai lama's views actually are.
I can't say this is true of the past, you know, the days where people had attainments.

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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Malcolm » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:53 pm

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:11 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:01 pm
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:48 pm


Good one. Use exaggerated examples to try to make viewing a teacher as having enlightened activity delusional.
It is only delusional to see a teacher's activities as awakened if they are demonstrably anything but awakened, for example, the activities of Sogyal Lakar; Trungpa's Regent, Osel Tenzin, etc.
That's a big If ..
No, it is a pretty small "if." It is recommended in the tantric literature that masters adopt a conduct in conformity with people's conventional moral expectations. For example, the Pradīpoddyotanābhisaṃdhiprakāśikā-nāma-vyākhyāṭīkā states:

As such, the vajra master exhibits the essence of the five tathāgatas, and the sixth, Vajradhara. Such a master as that having the qualities of a vajraguru always upholds the qualities of discipline (śīla) and so on, and avoids upholding any sort of faulty negative behavior.
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:11 pm
By the way it's very difficult to establish what is demonstrably awakened and what is not. I think that a fair amount of teachers who are revered these days had probably done a few things in their life someone would consider shocking.
So the solution is to err on the side of awakening based on arguments from authority? No, I think the solution is to err on the side of doubt. This is why we are instructed to observe teachers for a long while. And if a teacher proves in the end they are not qualified, there is no reason to hang around and pretend they are buddhas.
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:07 pm

Losal Samten wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:17 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:06 pm
Losal Samten wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:06 pm

After the release of Drung, Deu and Bon IIRC. I'll try to get more info.
Ok.
Edit: Necklace of Zi.

Send a message to Yudron to see if she remembers the specifics.

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 46#p129646
Oh God..
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Josef » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:22 pm

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:04 pm
Josef wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:03 pm
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:00 pm


Unless if your teacher is Sogyal Rinpoche, (you could take it an an insult) then i'm not sure what you're referring to.

Rinpoche didn't "insult" anyone, he actually just reported what someone said about him.

I have frankly never heard Rinpoche insult a single teacher, except some harsh language aimed at a Khenpo who had forged the signature of HH the sakya trizin for personal aims.

That being said, if Your own root guru does insult Rinpoche, I at least can respect that. After all you're just being loyal to your teacher, and of course you will likely agree with their opinion.

Yet interestingly, I see many of these practitioners, who .. Would seem in contradiction with the views of their own Root, and lineage masters.
His statements insult the entire Longchen Nyingthig lineage.
Interesting,
HH Dilgo khyentse rinpoche ( who most, if not all Nyingthig practitioners revere) Didn't seem to think so.
Dilgo Khyentse (unfortunately) isnt around anymore.
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Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:23 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:53 pm
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:11 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:01 pm


It is only delusional to see a teacher's activities as awakened if they are demonstrably anything but awakened, for example, the activities of Sogyal Lakar; Trungpa's Regent, Osel Tenzin, etc.
That's a big If ..
No, it is a pretty small "if." It is recommended in the tantric literature that masters adopt a conduct in conformity with people's conventional moral expectations. For example, the Pradīpoddyotanābhisaṃdhiprakāśikā-nāma-vyākhyāṭīkā states:

As such, the vajra master exhibits the essence of the five tathāgatas, and the sixth, Vajradhara. Such a master as that having the qualities of a vajraguru always upholds the qualities of discipline (śīla) and so on, and avoids upholding any sort of faulty negative behavior.
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:11 pm
By the way it's very difficult to establish what is demonstrably awakened and what is not. I think that a fair amount of teachers who are revered these days had probably done a few things in their life someone would consider shocking.
So the solution is to err on the side of awakening based on arguments from authority? No, I think the solution is to err on the side of doubt. This is why we are instructed to observe teachers for a long while. And if a teacher proves in the end they are not qualified, there is no reason to hang around and pretend they are buddhas.


I guess Do khyentse, Chokgyur lingpa, Drukpa kunley, Chogyam trungpa rinpoche, Thinley norbu rinpoche Etc Didn't get the note..

From authority? You mean actually believing in the Wisdom of the lineage masters that we take refuge in? It seems from your stance you do not care if all of the various lineage heads proclaim in their wisdom someone to be an authentic lama. I think it points out a lack of faith on your behalf, which is fine. However don't go parading that around as the Vajrayana. Why listen to anything these lama's teach anyway? since they are clearly confused, and cannot even tell the difference between awakened beings and ignorant ones.

It's like Thrangu rinpoche once said, for a realized being it's very easy for them to know who is, and who isn't authentic. & yet you conceive that our lineage masters are deluded, and we should appear to our collective common sense when a lama's actions don't conform with what we consider to be acceptable. By your line of logic Trungpa Rinpoche would have been thrown in the clinker a long time ago, because everyone would have discounted the opinions of the kagyu elders, who while not condoning that behavior by ordinary beings maintained that Rinpoche was an awakened being.

Anyway, I cannot concede to your point that our masters are deluded. I guess i'll be a black sheep in here for actually believing in their judges of characters over the latest definition of what's politically correct.

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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Grigoris » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:44 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:52 pm
In other words you think his/her views are orthodox, meaning for example someone cannot be raped by their guru since it is merely their projection they are being raped?
"NAMO GURU PADMA SIDDHI HRI!


My sons you have met a sublime consort, the Great Mother,
And by virtue of your resources of accumulated merit,
Fortuitously, you have received the four empowerments.
Concentrate upon the evolution of the four levels of joy.

Immediately you set eyes upon my body-mandala,
Your mind was possessed by a lustful disposition,
And your confidence won you the Vase Initiation.
Apprehend the very essence of lust,
Identify it as your creative vision of the deity,
And that is nothing but the Yidam deity himself.
Meditate upon lustful mind as Divine Being.

Uniting with space, your consort's secret mandala,
Pure pleasure exciting your nerve centres,
Your aggression was assuaged and loving kindness was born,
And its power won you the Mystic Initiation.
Apprehend the very essence of joy,
Mix it with your vital energy and maintain it awhile,
And if that is not mahamudra, nothing is.
Experience pleasure as mahamudra.

Joined to your consort's sphere of pure pleasure,
Inspired to involuntary exertion,
Your mind merged with my mind,
And that blessing won you the Wisdom Initiation.
Undistracted, guard the very essence of pleasure,
Identify pure pleasure with Emptiness,
And that is what is known as immaculate empty pleasure.
Experience pure pleasure as supreme joy.

United at your consort's blissful nerve,
Our two nectars fused into one elixir.
The phenomena of self and others extinguished,
Awareness won you the Initiation of Creative Expression.
Guard the natural purity in the world of appearances,
Identify your love and attachment with Emptiness,
And that is nothing other than Dzogchen itself.
Experience innate joy as no-joy.

This is extraordinary, exalted secret instruction;
To consciously practise this method brings a fall,
But discovered by chance it gives miraculous release.
You attained the four empowerments at once,
And your success was matured by the four stages of joy."

From Sky Dancer Chapter Seven, pps. 118-19;
Establishing, Spreading and Perpetuating the Teaching,
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Sonam Wangchug
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:51 pm

Josef wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:22 pm
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:04 pm
Josef wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:03 pm


His statements insult the entire Longchen Nyingthig lineage.
Interesting,
HH Dilgo khyentse rinpoche ( who most, if not all Nyingthig practitioners revere) Didn't seem to think so.
Dilgo Khyentse (unfortunately) isnt around anymore.
You do realize that Rinpoche is the reincarnation of one of his Root guru's right?

That's the great thing about enlightened beings, They do not support someone and relate to them on a devotional level and the next day change their mind .. Whoops he's not manjushri he's just a conceited A hole.. Nope.

What a strange thought though.

Rinpoche has over 50 Guru's (spanning virtually all lineages) including some of the greatest of the past century living and dead, but I doubt if I provided you a list of beings who had faith in rinpoche despite their stature it would change your mind, because who cares what realized beings think, because some people got offended by a Facebook post.

In any case, these recent happenings have certainly been enlightening in showing the current climate of Vajrayana in the West.

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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by gb9810 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:01 am

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:20 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:05 pm
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:00 pm

That being said, if Your own root guru does insult Rinpoche, I at least can respect that. After all you're just being loyal to your teacher, and of course you will likely agree with their opinion.
Right, because after all Vajrayāna really is just all about clans, fealty, and tribes. :shrug:
People tend to agree with what their root guru's stance is .. For example when you were strongly speaking years ago about Dzogchen (Images of a world with an ah on it) how you can be a dzogchenpa without being Buddhist, and upsetting many people, you likely were influenced by the teachings of CHNN.

Though I know today it's popular to not give a rats ass what ones Tsawai lama's views actually are.
I can't say this is true of the past, you know, the days where people had attainments.
interesting... to see that for so many, it does seem to be all about "clans, fealty, and tribes", eh?

I never thought becoming a parrot to our teacher, or a Pavlov guard dog that automatically attacks/defends whenever any bell of critical view rings, is part of the genuine dharma teaching (though certainly part of a coarse human instinct). Never heard anything remotely along this line until I observe it all over FB..

Let me ask if you don't mind: why do you feel such a strong need to "defend" your teachers or your tribe? Do you think DJKR cares, or anyone with realization of selflessness/buddha nature/rigpa/thamal gyi shepa ..etc. would care being called (or misunderstood) as A or B by so-and-so?! (Please note I am not challenging the legitimacy and spiritual attainment of the various masters you listed.. merely about why you or anyone need to "defend" them.)

In this case, DJKR is a big boy, and should fully understand the causes and consequences of his actions in this relative world, east and west. and I am sure he can fully take the understanding, as well as the misunderstanding. (It doesn't take a buddhist lama to anticipate the likely consequences, by the way..) If he may be aiming to provoke, provoked response he gets. He wants to stir, stirred outcome he gets. Is he unable to take behavior other than his loyal disciplines bowing at his feet?! I am sure he's much more enlightened than that.. but his attack dogs somehow can't live with anyone else having different opinions about their guru?

Why do we see this type of "loyalty" arising so spontaneously, even when the masters themselves may not care of about the criticism himself? Could it be that we are just trying to protect our own ego? as if the guru did something that causes controversies (e.g. is criticized by completely random people on FB ?!), it must mean our own practice, path, or realization is also "challenged"? This last part, to me, seems a clear imputation coming out of ego-clinging, rather than any true sense of "loyalty". Devotion is to the guru, to me at least, is not about becoming their pet parrots or their dogs..

So what if some other teacher ever said some not to flattery things about my or your or his teacher? DJKR himself, in his long letter, said he'd done it about some other teacher, no? (didn't he warn some student about another teacher and then it backfired?) So what? Must we all immediately draw lines and separate ourselves into tribe A vs. B?!

good grief...

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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by MalaBeads » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:02 am

DGA wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:40 pm
smcj wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:49 pm
Of possible interest:
https://tricycle.org/magazine/quit-guru-yoga/
Is there any evidence he practiced guru yoga in the first place?
I remember quite well Stephen Batchelor speaking at Green Gulch Farm. At the 'tea on the deck' session afterwards I went up to him and asked him who his teacher was. He replied "Geshe Rabten" and then added "But he died." From the various things he said during his talk, I think he did practice Guru Yoga.
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.

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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:03 am

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:23 pm

It seems from your stance you do not care if all of the various lineage heads proclaim in their wisdom someone to be an authentic lama.
"Authentic lama" is not the same thing as "awakened bodhisattva" or a buddha. I am quite sure that one can be an authentic lama and have no realization beyond the path of application. The problem here, as with the problem of monastic vows, is that very few people actually understand the textual traditions to which they supposedly adhere. As a result, they simply believe anything they are told without critically investigating it.
I think it points out a lack of faith on your behalf, which is fine. However don't go parading that around as the Vajrayana. Why listen to anything these lama's teach anyway? since they are clearly confused, and cannot even tell the difference between awakened beings and ignorant ones.
Like the Khyentse Wangpo story of the lama who was reborn as a cow, I am pretty sure our lineage heads know that most of their recognitions are just upayas, means for keeping monasteries afloat with donations and to keep lineages going with trained lamas. One famous master whom you have referenced several times in this conversation was heard to remark once that 95 percent of all the recognized tulkus were not in fact the reincarnations of their predecessors.
Anyway, I cannot concede to your point that our masters are deluded.
That is not my point and I never made such a statement.
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:06 am

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:44 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:52 pm
In other words you think his/her views are orthodox, meaning for example someone cannot be raped by their guru since it is merely their projection they are being raped?
"NAMO GURU PADMA SIDDHI HRI!


My sons you have met a sublime consort, the Great Mother,
I don't think Yeshe Tsogyal was raped by her teacher. But I do think she was raped by some bandits whom she then converted to Dharma, or so the story goes. I just don't see how your example applies, unless you are suggesting that women can be raped in enlightenment by their gurus, which I somehow think is not the point you were trying to make.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Malcolm
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:15 am

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:51 pm


Rinpoche has over 50 Guru's (spanning virtually all lineages) including some of the greatest of the past century living and dead, but I doubt if I provided you a list of beings who had faith in rinpoche despite their stature it would change your mind, because who cares what realized beings think, because some people got offended by a Facebook post.

The point of the teachings is not to accept them because the Buddha, etc., said they were true. The point is become realized oneself. I would be very happy if Dzongsar is a realized person, that would be fantastic. Every genuinely realized person is a boon to the world. But as you said yourself, it is virtually impossible to tell who is realized and who is not. Not only that, they don't need anyone's endorsement at all. Maybe you will come to that understanding someday.


BTW:
I think it points out a lack of faith on your behalf...
I have no use for faith of the kind you are talking about. My certainty in the teachings isn't based on faith.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by gb9810 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:26 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:15 am
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:51 pm


Rinpoche has over 50 Guru's (spanning virtually all lineages) including some of the greatest of the past century living and dead, but I doubt if I provided you a list of beings who had faith in rinpoche despite their stature it would change your mind, because who cares what realized beings think, because some people got offended by a Facebook post.

The point of the teachings is not to accept them because the Buddha, etc., said they were true. The point is become realized oneself. I would be very happy if Dzongsar is a realized person, that would be fantastic. Every genuinely realized person is a boon to the world. But as you said yourself, it is virtually impossible to tell who is realized and who is not. Not only that, they don't need anyone's endorsement at all. Maybe you will come to that understanding someday.


BTW:
I think it points out a lack of faith on your behalf...
I have no use for faith of the kind you are talking about. My certainty in the teachings isn't based on faith.
bravo..

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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Josef » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:35 am

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:51 pm
Josef wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:22 pm
Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:04 pm


Interesting,
HH Dilgo khyentse rinpoche ( who most, if not all Nyingthig practitioners revere) Didn't seem to think so.
Dilgo Khyentse (unfortunately) isnt around anymore.
You do realize that Rinpoche is the reincarnation of one of his Root guru's right?

That's the great thing about enlightened beings, They do not support someone and relate to them on a devotional level and the next day change their mind .. Whoops he's not manjushri he's just a conceited A hole.. Nope.

What a strange thought though.

Rinpoche has over 50 Guru's (spanning virtually all lineages) including some of the greatest of the past century living and dead, but I doubt if I provided you a list of beings who had faith in rinpoche despite their stature it would change your mind, because who cares what realized beings think, because some people got offended by a Facebook post.

In any case, these recent happenings have certainly been enlightening in showing the current climate of Vajrayana in the West.
I know full well who he is said to be an incarnation of.
Last edited by Josef on Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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