Sastavadava and ucchedavada

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PuerAzaelis
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Sastavadava and ucchedavada

Post by PuerAzaelis »

We are told that eternalism is the translation of "sastavadava" and nihilism is "ucchedavada".

Is there a reliable source for a literal translation of these terms? What do they actually mean?
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Malcolm
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Re: Sastavadava and ucchedavada

Post by Malcolm »

PuerAzaelis wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:08 pm We are told that eternalism is the translation of "sastavadava" and nihilism is "ucchedavada".

Is there a reliable source for a literal translation of these terms? What do they actually mean?
Ucchedavāda means "those who advocate cutting off," that is annihilation rather than nihilism. It is the assertion that since the person ceases at death, there is no karma, not future lives, etc.

Śaśvatavāda is the assertion that an entity, an atman, a world, etc., is permanent and undergoes no change, hence eternalism.

Both positions contradict dependent origination, the middle way.
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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Sastavadava and ucchedavada

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What is the etymology of these words? The reason I ask is that I heard that they relate to the question of whether the fruit definitely results from (sastavadava) or does not dependably result from (ucchedavada) the seed. Hence they pertain more to a view of causation rather than existence.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Malcolm
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Re: Sastavadava and ucchedavada

Post by Malcolm »

PuerAzaelis wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:29 pm What is the etymology of these words? The reason I ask is that I heard that they relate to the question of whether the fruit definitely results from (sastavadava) or does not dependably result from (ucchedavada) the seed. Hence they pertain more to a view of causation rather than existence.
The original usage is the one I gave. However, there are many implications that can be drawn.
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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Sastavadava and ucchedavada

Post by PuerAzaelis »

Would it be valid to ever use "order" and "chaos" for these terms?
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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pael
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Re: Sastavadava and ucchedavada

Post by pael »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:16 pm
PuerAzaelis wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:08 pm We are told that eternalism is the translation of "sastavadava" and nihilism is "ucchedavada".

Is there a reliable source for a literal translation of these terms? What do they actually mean?
Ucchedavāda means "those who advocate cutting off," that is annihilation rather than nihilism. It is the assertion that since the person ceases at death, there is no karma, not future lives, etc.
Is it same as thinking death is like fainting or sleep from which you won't wake up? Or thinking 'death is the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an organism'? Is this ucchedavada? I want faint and I don't want to wake up. I want to sleep forever. I wish person ceases at death. I fear person doesn't cease at death. I can't be sure. Does this make me annihilationist? How to solve problem? Any good study material about dependent origination or other suggestions? I'm confused.
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering
Malcolm
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Re: Sastavadava and ucchedavada

Post by Malcolm »

PuerAzaelis wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:36 pm Would it be valid to ever use "order" and "chaos" for these terms?
No.
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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Sastavadava and ucchedavada

Post by PuerAzaelis »

Ok ty.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Caoimhghín
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Re: Sastavadava and ucchedavada

Post by Caoimhghín »

PuerAzaelis wrote: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:29 pm What is the etymology of these words?
Śāśvata seems to literally mean "eternal". I can't find the PIE root.

Uccheda seems to mean "abolition" or "get rid of". I can't find the PIE root for this one either.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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